Middle East: A neglected detail

08/21/2006

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Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000500.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

by Moderator @ 05:05 PM CST [Link]

Replies: 32 comments

Yes, I suppose you could say that Hamas refuses to negotiate peace. Especially when Israel refuses to even meet with Hamas for negotiations, I suppose you could make up anything, and according to Israel it would become truth. It is implicite that Al-Queda refuses to negotiate peace with the US, that is because we have not sat with them to negotiate this. What kind of F'd up logic is that? Here we are once again with a biased moderator, spewing forth more propaganda instead of a balanced observation of the events as they unfold. I am absolutely amazed that Hezbollah is restraining themselves in an attempt to comply with a cease fire and yet Israel continues operations within Lebabnon under the cover of night. Who is the agressor here? What is the point of agreeing to a cease-fire only to undermine it a few days later and attempt to blame it on the enemy who has largely abidded by the agreement? What I mean here is Israel's explanation that they were attempting to stop weapons transfers. Simply put, that is not Israels job. Large scale operations don't happen over night, you can't take matters into your own hands. Once again that is a sticky situation, do you allow the enemy to restock or act to prevent it. If you prevent it you risk the end of the cease-fire, thus taking a step back away from peacefull negotiations. Negotiations, in the end, is the only way to win a war. Also Ami, you are placing all factions under Iran's hand in one bucket. That is not fair and cannot be accurate. I hope your government does not take this approach with their tactical decisions. Israel cannot pound them all into the earth, neither can we (US) do this for you. The answer is to devide an conquer. Win over moderate Hezbollah and moderate Syria, negotiate with them. When all is said and done, human nature is selfish, if they have what they want, they will not come to the aid of Iran.

Posted by OMFG @ 08/21/2006 06:55 PM CST

In saying that Hamas refuses to negotiate peace, I am simply stating a fact that Hamas themselves announce, day and night. They say they will never make peace with Israel. If Israel met all their demands, they would agree to a truce, like the one that Muhamed made with the Meccans, or Salaheddin made with the Crusaders.

Only degenerates who hide behind mysterious initials spread disinformation to the contrary.

Ami Isseroff

Posted by Ami Isseroff @ 08/21/2006 11:54 PM CST

OMFG
May one enquire against what criteria do you determine that Hezbollah and Syria are moderate? Syria is a country that has a human rights and political history which is neither moderate by international standards nor committed to the concept of peaceful coexistance with any of its neighbours. Hezbollah is simply the proxy army of Syria and Iran that exists to further their nmational interests. certainly Hezbolah's presence in Lebanon does not contribute to political stability. Control of Lebanon by Syria is entirely within stated Syrian policies which seek the establishment of Greater Syria based loosely upon the Damascus centred administrative region. This threatens the territorial intergrity of Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and future Palestine.
The idea that the USA could sit down and negotiate with Al Qaida is an absurdity. It would be opposed by nearly all of the Arab and Muslim governments, as Al Qaida seeks their overthrow. It would simply legitimise Al Qaida's fascist, sectarian and racist agenda.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 08/22/2006 10:49 AM CST

Rod Davies says that Hezbollah is the proxy army of Syria. Ami tells us that they are beholden to the Iranians. Which is it? (Shiite fundmentalist) Iran and (Sunni secular Ba'athist) Syria are hardly bosom buddies. Isn't the reality here that Hezbollah is a domestic Lebanese outfit who take financial and material support from wherever it's available without compromising their own political independence?

Ami, again you describe Nasrallah as a fanatic genocidal terrorist. Put up some evidence of this please? (Not the outdated rhetoric of the Hezbollah Program, please) I see an Islamist Lebanese politician and militia leader who certainly has extremely negative views about Israel and Jews in general but no actual plans to drive anyone into the sea. Hezbollah's military strategy is plainly designed for defence and deterrence.

Regarding Hamas, a 20 year ceasefire IS peace and the offer should be taken seriously. Israel certainly has sufficient resources to keep tabs on what the PA is up to and pre-empt any serious threat. It suits the Israeli Right to pretend there is no-one to negotiate with and these two latest Israeli wars of choice are designed to ensure that situation continues.

When alleged moderates are prepared to give the hawks such cover and credibility it's unsurprising there is no progress.

Posted by Spike @ 08/23/2006 03:42 PM CST

Syria (run by Alawi minority member Assad) made an alliance of convenience with Iran and has been regularly issuing statements of support for Iran. Part of this support is expressed in supplying (and allowing Iran to supply) the Hezbollah. The Hezbollah in turn, is happy to support the presence of "sister" or its agents in Lebanon. When Syria was in Lebanon, it controlled Hezbollah very effectively.

All this is known to all and can be ascertained from Lebanese newspapers, the SANA press agency and other sources available in English even to people who move their lips when they read. However, Iranian Hezbollah was created by Shiites who studied in Iran and in Karbala under Iranians and is the counterpart of the Iranian Hezbollah. It is financed and controlled by Tehran. Therefore there is no contradiction between saying that Syria and Tehran can control them. Shi'a Iran also finances the Sunni Hamas these days. Iran is interested in leading the Islamist revolution for all Muslims. That is not good news for Arabs anywhere, and that is why some regimes are less enthusiastic supporters of Hezbollah than you are, Spike.

It is amazing that someone who displays total ignorance of elementary facts of political life in the Middle East can nonetheless pontificate and lecture on what policy Israel or other countries should follow, presumably based on their superiority as Westerners. A 20 year truce in which an entire generation of fanatics is raised to believe Israel must be wiped out, as a religious duty, and a Hamas run Palestinian state arms itself and trains for "der tag" is not a "peace" treaty. It is suicide.

A.I.

Posted by Morator @ 08/24/2006 12:07 AM CST

So now a request for evidence is classed as "enthusiastic support". I am almost tempted to rest my case right there.

For the record, I am opposed to Hezbollah and everything they stand for (except for their right to defend Lebanese territory from a much stronger hostile force). However my opposition does not require that I demonise them. (In the same way incidentally as many lefties & Arab nationalists demonise Israel).

I take my political lead on Palestine from people like Gush Shalom who certainly do live in the Middle East, do have access to the relevant information and do have a serious stake in getting these things right. They certainly do not like Hamas and Hezbollah, but they are prepared to analyse what those organisations actually represent and try and find openings for dialogue.

(By the way, your statements about outsiders' ignorance of the facts remind me very much of what we used to hear from white South Africans in the anti-apartheid days. And I suspect much Israeli arrogance vis a vis the Arabs stems from their own 'superiority as Westerners').

More seriously, deciding in advance of any actual negotiations that a 20 year truce is simply an opportunity for one side to prepare to destroy the other is a counsel of despair (and the German phrase is perhaps a clue to the mindset). As we have seen in Northern Ireland, peace has its own momentum and it is hard to rebuild popular support for war once the economic and social benefits of peace are apparent. Secondly, most of the support for the extremists is produced by the actual conditions of occupation; once those are alleviated, it will be much harder to garner support for terrorism. These are common factors to every similar struggle the world over - not that much local knowledge is actually required to extrapolate them to the Midle East.

I assume your contention that "Iranian Hezbollah...is the counterpart of Iranian Hezbollah" is a mistype. Leaving that aside, perhaps you could peruse this:-

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero073106.html

and let us know how accurate you feel it is. It looks pretty plausible to me.

Posted by Spike @ 08/24/2006 05:34 PM CST

Rod,

Incase you are not aware, reality is not a linear progression of generalizations. Hezbollah and Syria do in fact have moderates among them as do any and all social groupings. I'm sorry you are prejudice.

Ami,

Thank you for further proving my point about you being biased. Oh, and your personal blow on my character almost made me shed a tear.

The facts are simple, no war has ever been ended by complete annihilation of the enemy. No matter how much war mongering authorative groups in the region partake in, they will gain nothing from it, outside of more animosity tword the other for several more generations to come. Anyone who says they cannot see this is either retarded or a liar. Holding pride in the fact that your people are bullying another people should be acustomed to holding pride in the fact that you've sh@t your pants. It is simply moronic.

Posted by OMFG @ 08/24/2006 06:59 PM CST

I have been reading commentaries here ever since Israel decided to get it's "two soldiers" back from the so called by Israel and the US terrorists. I almost left Lebanon, I was actually waiting in the line of people leaving the country. I changed my mind when I heard the Israeli planes bomb yet another civillian area in Beirut. For about ten days before that I saw and heard the planes as they bombed less than 700 meters from where I was staying. For many nights we could not sleep from the sound of the MK plane. MK a term I learned this past war of Israel on Lebanon, thank you Israel for the education. I am writting to say congradulations to Israel and all it's peace loving people who supported this brutal and barbaric war on Lebanon, or as most Israeli's and their allies say "the war against Hizbullah". As most Israeli's did not see what happened due to the restrictions that the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel imposed, I am certain most will not agree with what I will say here and especially since this blog seems to be visited by mainly blinded pro Israeli and the supporters of truth and justice are mostly asleep like I was. But thanks again for the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel, there are many more people around the globe that are waking up and starting to see how Israel is a beast that will definitley be tamed. A beast that lost all so much support from around the world. You talk about a just cause, where the hell does anyone get that from. Because two soldiers were taken by a group that only came to be because of the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel occupying Lebanese land for over 20 years. The group that you call terrorists, are your doing just like Hamas. Where the hell do you get the right to say your state has the right to defend it self and the Lebanese don't have the same rights. Israel DID NOT COMPLY WITH UN RESOLUTION 425. They ran out of Lebanon with their tales shoved between their legs and then said we comply with UN resolution 425 after 20 YEARS. Who the hell makes you an expert on the Shibaa farms. The farms are owned by Lebanese and not Syrians. Yes the syrians were their when Israel captured and occupid the arab land. This was due to the weak Lebanese government at the time. This does not change the fact that the farms are Lebanese and the Lebanese government took exception to this matter and the decided that the matter will be decided soon when the borders are marked. In any case the land is not Israeli, so get the hell out of them. You talk about having the right to hit "Hizbullah" that were showring Israel with missles? Again, you were off somewhere and may not have heard of the whole story or you chose to swallow parts of reality. The Hizb did not fire anything into Israel until the Israeli's started bombing civillian areas. So go get a coffe and read the facts. The Hizb wanted to swap the Lebanese prisoners for the Israeli prisoners nothing more nothing less. But of course the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel wont negotiate with terrorists as you say. Israel has kidnapped Lebanese, has assasinated Lebanese, has come into Lebanon by air sea and land , there were complaints to the UN with 11000 violations against Israel since the year 2000, the year that made Hizbullah the major player in the region. I will repeat this ELEVEN THOUSAND TIMES ISRAEL VIOLATED LEBANESE LAND. So just because the world is blind to these facts, the Lebanese are not. Just because Israeli's are on a self destruction course, the lebanese know the truth. Just becasue the arrogance of Israel is accepted in the world, the Lebanese wont accept the bull from Israel.
As to Syria and Iran, I have no fear of either country actually doing anything to precious Israel. They stood by like so many countries while the Israeli airforce destroyed almost everything in Lebanon. And yet you still justify the actions of the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel. Israel and most Israeli's feel that they are above the law and above any human to the point that they think they are a race above all. I must agree on the great war that you just finished and that Israel won (in your dreams only). You are truly a winning people. You showed us your might by bombing bridges. Bombing roads. bombing factories, boming the red cross vehicle which I thoght was very nice where the brave pilot above in the sky managed to put the missle in the middle of the cross. This showes the accuracy of the missles when they want to send a message to the UN to shut up. Just because many did not notice this, many Lebanese noticed it, they also noticed how Israel does not discriminate of course the reason being that they are a DEMOCRACY. The did not discriminate between killing children or killing adults. killing Lebanese or killing Canadians or killing people hiding in sheltors or killing people walking on the beach. They did not discriminate against humans or things. They destroyed and killed everything with no discrimination. So I must salute the DEMOCRATIC state of Israel for not dicriminating. Your fear showed not be from Lebanon or Syria or Iran. Your fear should be from yourselves for being so out of touch with reality. From a milltary view, Israel got it's ass kicked with most of the world facing this reality. You have destroyed Lebanon but made the Lebanese more united of course there are those who for a price will sell Lebanon like the many many people Israel has working for it in Lebanon.
I wold like to end this with a small note: ISRAEL GET OUT OF OCCUPIED LAND. CRAWL BACK TO THE 1967 BORDER AND STOP PLAYING THE POOR SAVE ME SOUL. THE ARABS WONT THOW YOU INTO THE SEA OR RETURN YOU TO THE STONE AGE LIKE WHAT ISRAEL DID TO LEBANON. GET OUT BEFORE YOU IMPLODE ONTO YOURSELF OR MABYE EXPLODE BECAUSE OF YOU ARROGANCE. STOP THE KILLING SPREE BECAUSE ONE DAY IT WILL DESTROY YOU AND IT WILL BE BY YOUR DOING AND NOT THE SLEEPY ARABS. STOP THINKING THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SUPERIOR AIR FORCE AND MANY MANY NUKE WEAPONS THAT YOU CAN KILL AND NOT BE KILLED. THE ARABS AND MUSLIMS CAN HANDLE THE DEATH OF A FEW MILLIONS, CAN YOU HANDLE IT CAN THE DEMOCRATIC STATE OF ISRAEL HANDLE IT.

Posted by Mike Jebara @ 08/24/2006 10:14 PM CST

Sorry for the typing errors.

Posted by Mike Jebara @ 08/24/2006 10:17 PM CST

OMFG,
I did not necessarily doubt that there may exist "moderates" within either Hezbollah or Syria, however I did ask upon what criteria did you determine who is or is not a "moderate".

A moderate is someone whose views are a moderation of another more extreme paradigm. Thus a moderate may be someone who belongs to a political group that proposes genocide, but holds the view that the potential victims should not be murdered but merely enslaved. From the perspective of the extremist the moderate holds a view that is weak and tolerant. From the perspective of a liberal democrat both are extremists, just one is more extreme than the other.

However the presence of "moderates" may be meaningless if they are unable to influence their groups direction and the course of events.

Although you may be correct in stating that no nation has ever succeeded in absolutely annihilating another, there are plenty of instances in which one group has so reduced another through violence that they have for all practical purposes ceased to exist. In my opinion the threat of genocide is counterproductive because it simply strengthens the resolve of the other to resist, in the same way that executing prisoners merely encourages soldiers to fight harder.
As I have said in a number fora, the use of armed struggle against Israel is purposeless and simply leads to catastrophe. The Israelis have a millenia old culture built on withstanding violence. If Hamas or Fatah, or the even the Syrians, really wanted to undermine the Israeli will to resist they should use peaceful methods because the Israelis have no strategies how to respond to these. A simple flower handed to an occupying Israeli soldier will do more to build a Palestinian state than a whole clip of 7.62 x 39 bullets.
If the Arabs won the next war decisively and wiped Israel from the map there would be no blossoming of peace, they would simply turn upon in each other in search of an enemy. Today the Israelis provide the distraction to justify the absence of basic human rights and law.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 08/24/2006 10:18 PM CST

Spike,
What brought the Northern Irish conflict to an end was the ability of the British to choke off funds to the IRA. While up to the 1980's large amounts of money flowed in from sympathisers in the USA, the IRA could operate with relative ease. As this source of funds declined the IRA turned increasingly to crime in the Republic of Ireland which in turn incentivised the Irish to clamp down on IRA activities.

More recently the IRA overplayed its hand when some of its people killed a Catholic civilian and his sisters campaigned to force the IRA to surrender them to civil justice. The power of the IRA is such that despite this murder occurring in a crowded pub full of local people, no witnesses were willing come forward.

The IRA, and the Protestant equivalents, are still potent forces in NI. With the outbreak of peace that have simply moved more of their resources into crime. The IRA / Sinn Fein obtained political pre-eminence on the Republic side through violence directed towards the catholic community in the first instance. Punishment beatings, executions, and so on were common place. Sinn Fein always had plenty of money from overseas donors and through crime to promote itself, unlike SDLP. (Even today in the Irish parliament there are demands that Sinn Feins finances are investigated as they have so much more money than any other party.)

The lessons of Northern Ireland are that armed factions must first be starved of funds. Secondly the economy must be built up to ensure that there are alternative opportunities, and reduce dependency upon the terrorsit groups. Thirdly the remaining fighters must be hunted down and tried for the crimes they commit.

Applying the same strategies to the Palestinian groups would be much more difficult as regional governments consent to open fund raising, and western governments allow fund raising under the cover of humanitarian charities. Also as fast as the international community seeks to develop the Palestinian economy, the Palestinians pursue actions which lead to its demise.

People like to refer to Northern Ireland in reference to the Middle East, but in truth there is almost no similarity at any level.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 08/24/2006 10:38 PM CST

Thank you Rod for showing us along with the US the type of human rights that you propose for the arabs with your statement "Today the Israelis provide the distraction to justify the absence of basic human rights and law. You ahve shown the Arabs and Muslims clearly by your actions in Lebanon. Keep these types of human rights to yourself and people like yourself and leave the arabs fight among themselves if that's what you think. However I believe you are affraid of the arabs uniting and you have no care for any arab.

Posted by Mike Jebara @ 08/24/2006 11:01 PM CST

To Mike Jebara,

I am a United States citizen. I have lived in the United States for 32 of my 33 years of life. YOU SIR ARE 100 PERCENT ACCURATE IN YOUR STATEMENTS. People like Ami and other right wing idiots in the United States are the real terrorists. Let me prove this to you Mike.
Most if not all Right Wing Republicans in the United States are Christian conservatives. So this is really simple, who is the main character in the Bible????? What is the main idea of the Bible???? Many of these Republicans quote everything in their Bible execpt the Gospels. So, now for the proof. The main character is Jesus. The main idea is Love. What is a christian???? It is to be "Christ-like", right??? Not only is Jesus the main character of the Bible, but he is God himself in flesh and blood. The same God that created these Republican conservatives, came down as a human. So what did Jesus do???? How did he respond to physical, and verbal torture???? He did NOTHING. HE LOVED THEM. HE SAID FORGIVE THEM THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
So here is your proof Mike Jebara on why the real terrorists are the Republican conservatives in the United States. If you are a Republican right wing conservative you are usually a Chrisitian. To be a true Christian, you have to BE LIKE JESUS, NOT JUST EXEPT THAT HE SAVED YOUR SINS. It is true that no one can be perfect, but that is the IDEAL MAN. To all the the people on there radio talk shows, such as, Rush Limbaugh, and others on there right wing media, you are either a CHRISTIAN, AND YOU DO NOT BEHAVE IN ANY MATTER THAT IS DISPLEASING TO JESUS OR YOU GO TO HELL BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT REALLY CHRISTIAN. YOU CLAIM THAT IRAN, SYRIA, AND HIZBOLLAH ARE TERRORISTS, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE EXACT COPIES OF MOTHER TERESA, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT NO TERRORISTS WOULD EXIST.

Now for all the right winged idiots, especially Rush, who will say that we can't be weak, all those psycho left wingers, are going to kill us all. I only have to say this again. Was JESUS WEAK??? WHY WOULD GOD TEACH TRUE CHRISTIANS ON HOW TO BEHAVE AS A HUMAN IF IT IS A SIGN OF WEAKNESS. IS GOD WEAK????

MIKE THE REASON TERRORISTS EXIST WETHER IT IS IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR HERE IN THE UNITED STATES (EX. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY), IS BECAUSE OF SOME KIND OF REACTION. LIKE I SAID IF IRAN, SYRIA AND LEBANON WHERE HANDLED BY MOTHER TERESA AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THOSE COUNTRIES WOULD BE OUR ALLIES TODAY AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE ANY ENEMIES. THE UNITED STATES ACTIONS IS WHAT GAVE BIRTH TO TERRORISTS IN THE MIDDLEAST. THAT IS FACT, NOT AN OPINION.

WHY WAS THERE NEVER A MUSLIM JIHAD AGAINST TRUE SAINTS, LIKE ST. NICKALAUS, ST. PATRICK, MOTHER TERESA, AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER SAINTS IN THE PAST????

FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THINKING THAT OF COURSE THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT ATTACKED CHRISTIANS AND, THERE WERE THE CRUSADES WHERE MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS BATTELED, BUT ONCE AGAIN, CHRISTIANS THAT BATTLED ARE NOT REAL CHRISTIANS. JESUS SAID TURN THE CHEEK.

MOST SAINTS AND MOST TRUE CHRISTIANS IN HISTORY WHEN FACED WITH PERSECUTION WHERE LOVING TILL THERE DEATH. DO ALL THE REPUBLICANS FORGET THAT ST. PAUL AND MANY SAINTS IN THERE BIBLES DIED PREACHING LOVE AND DID NOT FIGHT BACK.

I CANNOT RECALL THAT ST. PAUL AND THE OTHER 10 DISIPLES AFTER LOVING JESUS, FELT LIKE TAKING A WEAPON FOR ARMS AND KILLING HUMANS IF THEY DID NOT AGREE WITH THE GOSPEL (MEANING GOOD NEWS).

SO I WILL REPEAT ONE MORE TIME FOR THE IDIOT RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE VIEW THAT IS JUST PURE LIES AND HYPOCRITICAL TOWARDS THE MIDDLE EAST. EITHER YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN AND YOUR ASS BETTER BE BEHAVING EXACTLY LIKE JESUS, OR YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN AND YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO THE HELL THAT YOU PREACH ABOUT. SO WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WHEN 2 SOLDIERS WHERE KIDNAPPED??? LOVE THEM. WHAT WOULD JESUS DO IF IRAN THREATENS TO WIPE OF ISREAL OF THE MAP???? LOVE THEM. IT IS NOT WEAKNESS, IT IS STRENGTH TO LOVE AN ENEMY, THAT IS WHY IT IS SOO DIFICULT.

IF YOU ARE SCARED TO DIE FROM A TERRORIST OR A NUCLEAR WEAPON FIRED FROM IRAN, THEN AGAIN I QOUTE JESUS "DO NOT BE AFRAID". AGAIN FOR ALL THESE RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVES, IF YOU KNOW JESUS IS GOD, AND THAT HE DEFEATED DEATH THEN DO NOT BE AFRAID OF TERRORISTS.

FOR THE PEOPLE THAT NOW ARE SAYING BUT THEN HOW WILL WE DEFEND THE UNITED STATES??????
SAME LOGIC AND REASONING. ACCORDING TO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, GOD IS IN CHARGE, RIGHT???? IF THE UNITED STATES IS STRICTLY ADHEREING TO THE GOSPEL AND IS TRYING TO BEHAVE EXACTLY LIKE JESUS, THEN I AM PRETTY DARN SURE THAT GOD WILL PROTECT THE COUNTRY. SO ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE EITHER A CHRISTIAN AND YOU CAN SEE THE FACTS OF WHAT IS IN THE GOSPELS OR YOU ARE LYING HYPOCRITES THAT PISSED OF JESUS IN THE TEMPLE.

MIKE, GOOD LUCK TO YOU. LIKE I SAID I AM A PROUD UNITED STATES CITIZEN, AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT NOT EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES REPRESENTS THE TERRORIST REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE TERRORIST STATE OF ISREAL.

Posted by john @ 08/25/2006 05:17 PM CST

To Mike again, I forgot to mention one more detail.

It is extremely hypocritical of the United States to point one finger at Islam of the misusers of Islam, when the United States of America which stands for human rights are not following there Christian values. One more time Mike, they are hypocrites. I hope that Lebanon and all of its citizens can forgive us for being asshoooles and not standing up to the true Christianity that our right wing republican party stands for. Just remember that they are ignorant, slow, and incapable of having a heart. That is why they are angry most of the time and that is why they hate the lefties.

Posted by JOHN @ 08/25/2006 05:32 PM CST

in my opinion
the problems of the ME are mainly due to the moslem relgion
so the only real long term solution is to convert them
to judaism (dont laugh) or christianity

Posted by skydiver @ 08/25/2006 09:38 PM CST

Religion is not the problem, the urge to "convert" people is just a sad, pathetic desire to control others; most likely due to the fact that you are a weakling pud smacker. Religion is only a tool used to convey idea's, almost like a language. It puts idea's in a context. If people twist the context, like ..oh ..I don't know..every christian that I've ever met, then it can become harmful. But just as a gun does not kill people (people kill people), religion also does not kill people. Evil men come into power, through whatever means and they impose their wills upon those that are of lesser intelligence, and in turn using the sheep population to impose his/her will upon his neighboring states. This is what is happening. Omhert...EVIL. Iranian president...whatsisjamommabean or what the hell ever....EVIL. Children of Israel...Stupid. People of Iran...Stupid. Who pays the price in the end? The stupid people. If they had a lick of brains they would kill the ones calling the shots, not eachother.

Posted by OMFG @ 08/26/2006 12:08 AM CST

I wanted to add a viewpoint to this discussion about the war in Lebanon.
My idea is that this war was planned already months ago in America as a part of their plans against Iran.

America had already in the beginning of this year made serious preparations for a possible war against Iran. When the deal between Russia and Iran, to get the new air defence system from Russia to Iran, was finally settled in April, these plans were rapidly further advanced.

Concerning the war in Lebanon the idea was as put shorty to defeat Hezbollah in advance and to use Israel to do it. Hezbollah should be provoked to do an attact to get an excuse to start a big campaign against it in southern Lebanon.

My thoughts are based on American articles published already in April in America. Please read especially:

THE IRAN PLANS
Would President Bush go to war to stop Tehran from getting the bomb?
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Issue of 2006-04-17
Posted 2006-04-08

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/ content/articles/060417fa_fact

---

An exctract from the article:

"... the Pentagon adviser on the war on terror said of Hezbollah. This
will mobilize them and put us up against the group that drove Israel out
of southern Lebanon. If we move against Iran, Hezbollah will not sit on
the sidelines. Unless the Israelis take them out, they will mobilize
against us. (When I asked the government consultant about that
possibility, he said that, if Hezbollah fired rockets into northern
Israel, Israel and the new Lebanese government will finish them off.)..."

---

Please also read :

WATCHING LEBANON
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Washington’s interests in Israel’s war.
Issue of 2006-08-21
Posted 2006-08-14

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

And various articles as available:
http://globalresearch.ca/

-----

Both Israel and Lebanon are thus victims of American plans against Iran?

Posted by Hannu Virtanen @ 08/26/2006 01:20 PM CST

Well Rod, thank you for the history lesson on Ireland. Of course, nothing you wrote has the slightest relevance to my point, which was that the "Peace Dividend" from a generation-long ceasefire will be a powerful disincentive to restart the conflict.

Even if Hamas' offer is not well-intentioned, after 20 years of peace, economic development and hopefully prosperity, would Palestinians as a whole be inclined to re-start a war which would reduce their homes to rubble yet again? After 20 years of Palestinian democracy Hamas would hopefully no longer be in power, let alone in a position to start a war, and the idea that they could accumulate sufficient firepower and political will to destroy the Israeli state seems fanciful in the extreme.

In fact it is the continued conflict and routine harassment from the IDF which allows the extremists to recruit and build popular support, not abstract anti-semitic propaganda in Palestinian classrooms.

If this site was indeed set up to try and bring Israelis and Arabs closer together, characterising one side as implacable homicidal maniacs rather than ordinary human beings who have reacted to a genuine historical wrong done to them (and will react differently once that wrong is ameliorated) seems a questionable approach.

Incidentally, as it's so effective, perhaps the Israelis should have tried this "gift of flowers" approach with Hezbollah rather than reducing Lebanon as a whole to rubble.

Posted by Spike @ 08/26/2006 08:35 PM CST

"it is hard to rebuild popular support for war once the economic and social benefits of peace are apparent. Secondly, most of the support for the extremists is produced by the actual conditions of occupation; once those are alleviated, it will be much harder to garner support for terrorism."

I agree with the above. Any war against any power, even if your power might be a bit stronger is a hard struggle and you would even by winning suffer a lot. If the life in a country is reasonable good and the neighbour is not doing any harm to the country it isn't easy to gather any reasonable support for a war against the neighbour country?

"In fact it is the continued conflict and routine harassment from the IDF which allows the extremists to recruit and build popular support..."

In fact I think that in the longer run the way to 'win' Hezbollah is to start little by little some cooperation over the border instead of continuous harassment by war airplanes flying over the border.

Posted by Hannu Virtanen @ 08/26/2006 11:35 PM CST

Hi,
To all who say that Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance movement that only fights an unjust occupation, the following quotes might be interesting.
By the way, Arab anti-Semitism is not a product of Israeli violence, but existed before the occupation and also before Israel came into existence.

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." (Hezbollah statement, 1992) http://www.nysun.com/article/10439

"The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities... Anyone who reads the Qur'an and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history... Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment." (April 9, 2000) http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.24667,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

"Throughout history, the Jews have been Allah's most cowardly and greedy creatures. If you search the entire face of the Earth, you will find no one more miserly than the Jews, or more greedy." (Sept. 28, 2001) Al Manar; to be found on http://sigcarlfred.blogspot.com/2006/08/what-roosevelt-and-churchill.html and other places.

"If the Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Oct. 22, 2002)

Posted by Ratna @ 08/27/2006 07:16 PM CST

If the Arabs were truely committed to those beliefes, I can assure you, there would be no Israel. Hezbollah runs their mouths and occasionally take pot shots at Israel. Israel makes few statements, and yet their actions prove to be louder than any Arab cries of outrage. Alot of people here in the US say we won't be satisfied until Bush-Co is all dead, yet GWB does not come and shoot us down in the streets like dogs. Words and actions are two different things, actions speak louder than words. What Israel is saying with their actions is very frightening. In fact the world should be VERY concerned about their actions, it is not the Arabs that I fear, they have little to benefit from attacking the US. But Israel, has the un-ending support of the last super power to gain from attacking us and pointing the finger at their neighbors. "Through Deception Thou Shalt Wage War."

Posted by OMFG @ 08/28/2006 09:30 PM CST

Widespread Arab anti-semitism is undeniably a fact; putting a start date on it or pinning down causes is too complicated to attempt here. But definitely it was never as bad as Christian anti-semitism before Israel was established, so it seems to be more of a reaction than a spontaneous phenomenon.

However if Hezbollah is an Iranian puppet and the Iranians want to kill all the Jews, why haven't they started with the several thousand who live in Iran? Furthermore, Nasrallah last year shook hands with Noam Chomsky, who is definitely Jewish and even supports the two-state solution in Palestine.

I have seem those statements attributed to Nasrallah a number of times. Maybe he did say those things, although they seem to be the same sort of internet-currency as some of the alleged quotes from Zionist leaders which we are all familiar with. I suggest you try tracking down some primary sources before recycling them yet again.(In fact, perhaps that's something the people who run this site could usefully do - seriously).

Certainly I have seen other statements which entirely contradict those (and Hezbollah in practice has seldom ventured outside Lebanon, hardly what we would expect from a wealthy organisation dedicated to stamping out Jews worldwide when there are so many soft targets available...)

Posted by Spike @ 08/29/2006 02:00 AM CST

he candidate should have:
• 3+ years of experience in Java, J2EE
• Good experience in Object Oriented Design/Programming.
• Good knowledge of Oracle/ Sybase.
• Experience in Unix/Linux with Shell Scripting
• Must be a very good team player having excellent communication skills.

Posted by Sohrab Navaee-Ardeh @ 09/05/2006 06:09 PM CST

Sohrab,

uhhhhhhhh...hmm, I don't quite know what to say about that...=/

Posted by OMFG @ 09/11/2006 06:39 PM CST

we need more people like Sohrab to solve the middle east problems. LOL.

Posted by john @ 09/11/2006 07:34 PM CST

To Spike,

This is NOT a lecture; this is a statement of fact. Ireland and Europe are not Middle-East, with all that implies. To quote the cessation of fire in Ireland as an example to dynamics that can be created to an ever lasting peace is a folly. The 6 years "grace" period given the Hizballa, and what was done during this period is more like it. You give the Hammas or Hizballa or any one of these splinter organizations a period of "truce", and Israel will find itself in a similar mess to the one it found after the 6 years with the Hizballa. (I love to hear Americans and Europeans always referring to examples in Europe; we are not in Europe, fortunately and unfortunately, we are right smack near the craziest bunch of people on earth, please take heed).

Elis

Posted by Elis @ 09/25/2006 09:07 AM CST

To Mike Jebara,

In the Jewish tradition it says something like: "Don't judge a person when he is in pain...", obviously, your words show the hurt, and for that I simpathize with your pain on a person to person basis, and I even gloss over the cynicism and sarcasm; it's clear where you stand.

I felt you might be a person who could listen, in spite your pain, to the "other side" as well.
Israel is VERY sensitive to the issue of its own soverign status, and...its people's life. Hizballa has taken a step to challenge both issues WITHOUT any provocation on the part of Israel; this is the CORE issue in this current conflict. (We can throw at each other all kind of statements about injustices in the past, etc., etc. Nothing will change the above fact). Of course, you could argue whether this unprovoked aggressive Hizballa's action merited such a response; obviously, we think it was, obviously, you think it was overreaction, but...you can't deny the Hizballa "In your face" provocation. What would anyone think of us had we not responded to this? Need I remind you of the daily provocations by the Hizballa and thir sympathizers against Israeli soldiers across the fence from Israel? I don't remember the Israelies responding to those acts, believe me, you as humen being would have been VERY tempted to react to these provocations, yet...the Israeli soldiers were ordered not to react, and so they did.

Posted by elis @ 09/25/2006 10:08 AM CST

Elis,
You seem like a well meaning fellow who truely wishes to see a peaceful Israeli-Arab (Palastinian) relation develop in time. But is the wish realistic? The problem in this case is that most people dont know why palastinians are soooooooo anti-Israeli (NOT anti-Jewish) in the first place. They think that Arabs and Zionists have lived in this woe begotten land for hundreds of years and that there developed an enimosity between them over the generations.But we know otherwise dont we ?
The LAND (Palastine) was GRANTED to "The Jews" in 1947 by the British Government (occupying forces were there under the mandate of post 2nd WW : Sykes-Piquaux) "To establish a national country for Jews"! ! The British - being who they are gained TWICE in this most outragous of grants :1) Got rid of their Jews and the entire poor jewish population in Europe ( holding onto the RICH - mind you, although anti-semitism in Europe needs no introduction ); AND 2) planted a mine in the heart of Arabia, whose riches they had long covetted, NO-ONE would stand for their home being "GRANTED" to any other : A plan to keep the region in turmoil.
Knowingly or naiively Jews then emigrated to "ISRAEL" in thousands and thousands and set up their homes in the houses of Arabs who had fled from the terrorist measures taken to "INSURE" that THE JEWISH HOMELAND has room enough to welcome ALL the chosen people. Some Arabs were given a pittence by the more conciencious of the new arrivals. AND THE STORY GOES ON, and is still going on...
What would ANY decent American, Frenchman, German or Arab do if his HOME and LIFE and MEMORIES were taken away from him in this manner ?? WHAT would YOU do??? HONESTLY ??
PLS be honest in your answer, but first TRUELY look at the view from the other end of the scale.

Posted by shr @ 09/25/2006 02:54 PM CST

To Shr,

How did we get from the Hizballa issue to your dissertation, I'm not sure.
I did write before that one can argue history forever, and the argument would lead nowhere.
However, I'll take on your challenge and respond to your comments, even though it is beyond the realm of what I thought was the subject matter.

This is my biggest beef with the Arab side thesis.
Here goes...for some reason, it is the assumption of Arabs that wherever they live, it's ONLY theirs, no one can emigrate, no one can own lands (if he is Infidel, that is; and witness Israel's "friend", the "Moderate" Kingdom of Jordan with its nowadays' decree that whomever sells lands to the Jews will be executed by the government itself!!!). However, look at all these Moslems and Arabs emigrating in droves to Europe, Canada, USA, etc. and...no problem, no one restricts their movements, even though they are NOT Christians, and as we have witnessed recently many of them undermine the countries that were nice and hospitable to them, to begin with. For some reason, Arabs take it as an axiom that " What's mine is mine, what's yours in mine too". Amazingly, no one contest this; who cares about Jews who can't emigrate or purchase in any Arab lands.

However, let's turn to your specific gripes: Please read Jane Peter's book titled "From Time Immemorial", in which this self-proclaimed ex-ANTI-ISRAEL Britisher (by her own admission) decided to do an extensive research on the whole Arab-Israeli situation, and you will face the facts. Add this to Mark Twain own observations in the middle of the 19th century Palestine of a desert with nomads and a huge nothingness with the exception of the four holy cities where Arabs, Jews and Christians lived together in abject poverty, and many of your arguments are dispelled automatically.
The Jews return to Palestine WAY BACK before the Balfour declaration of 1917 and PURCHASED useless swampland from Arab land owners who charged them scandalous prices for what used be swampland ridden with Malaria and other diseases. The Arabs sold land WILLINGLY AND WITHOUT ANY COHORSION calling the Jews the People of Death (Loose translation for what they meant to say: Crazy people who are willing to die in reclaiming swampland. The Arabs never even considered the option of dredging the swamps, it was too risky, I guess).
No sooner after the Jews reclaimed the land and converted it into "Milk and Honey" (at a huge price in life and money), have the Arabs from the Sudan, Horan (part of Syria), Trans-Jordan, etc., start to emigrating to Palestine to seek work at Jewish settlements, (there was hardly any employment opportunities where they lived, Palestine or otherwise), getting decent wages and helping their families out of their abject poverty conditions, so endemic to Arab lands even now adays.
When the State of Israel was divided (By a majority of the UN decision) in 1947, The Arabs, disagreeing with a worldwide proclamation of a new and legitimate Israel, invaded the newly formed state in order to annihalate the state while in infancy stages. Additionally, almost all Arab countries from Morocco to Iraq deported (and in some cases initiating a "small pogrom" here and there, killing some in the process) their Jewish countryman with their clothing on their back as the only possession they could hold on to (There were about 600,000-700,000 Jews deported which you, in your objective thesis DID NOT even mentioned!!). So...you see, there are some other people with legitimate grievenesses besides Arabs; the difference? Jews did something to improve their lot, Arabs continue to whine and cry and find "scapgoats" all over.
I'm sure you won't like my rebuttal, but...in all honesty, don't take my words for it, read Joan Peters, she used to detest Israel, maybe you will believe her??
This is EXACTLY whay I meant about arguing past history, we got to move on , all of us, not just the Western world and Israel, but also Arabs and Moslems.

Posted by elis @ 09/25/2006 03:59 PM CST

Yes Elis, we have got to move on. So RIGHT NOW Isreal has all the power and cards in the debate over Palestinian vs. Isreali territory. So RIGHT NOW, USE ISREALI POWER TO MAKE THE MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIANS REASONALBLY HAPPY WITH MORE LAND AND MORE POWER, AND THEN POLICE YOUR OWN BORDERS WITH THE HUGE POWER OF ISREALI MIGHT. No thesis needed here elis, what is needed is a little unselfishness by the political leaders of Isreal to make their citizens, AND Palestinians happy.

Posted by john @ 09/25/2006 06:36 PM CST

To John,

I don't know who you are and what is your agenda, so, I'm not sure whether you say what you say seriously, or is it a tongue-in-check exersize.
Be it as it may, obviously, you haven't read my commentary, because if you did, you didn't get it. Israel IS NOT in the business of making the Palestinians happy or satisfied (are you for real?), these guys, in general, hate our guts, and until the time when they learn that other people are entitled also to live as they see fit (and not necessarilly, Alla's -way), the Israelis (and the rest of the Western world-perhaps you too John if you are a Non-Arab, are in real jeopardy and must be on their guard).
Israel has tried reaching accomodations with the Palestinians with the Oslo accord, real risky to Israel, but being the Liberal and Human Jews that we are, we took the plunge anyway, and we wound up having an Intifada A and Intifada B on our hands. If we relinquish land (like we did in Gaza) they come after us with Kasam missiles, if we were STUPID enough to allow for some return of Palestinians as a gesture of good will, we will be wiped off the map in a couple of years when demography will take over. This is NOT a COLLEGE HOMEWORK assignment, John, where you decide what fair is and you tell the strong guy to split the loot with the so-called weak guy. We live in the Middle-East, where ARAB population and lands dwarf Israel population and area by an order of magnitude. Given recent years of Islem's "Peace Loving" religion terrorism,worldwide, one has to be REAL WARY as to how to navigate and survive in these treacherous waters.

Posted by elis @ 09/25/2006 09:48 PM CST

to elis,

Your qoute:: "We live in the Middle-East, where ARAB population and lands dwarf Israel population and area by an order of magnitude. Given recent years of Islem's "Peace Loving" religion terrorism,worldwide, one has to be REAL WARY as to how to navigate and survive in these treacherous waters"

Yes Elis, Arab population and land does dwarf Israel's population, BUT YOU ARE JUST MAKING EXUSES FOR ISREAL. Isreal's military POWER DWARFS ARABS MILITARY POWER COMBINED MANY TIMES OVER, ESPECIALLY WHEN SUPPORTED BY THE UNITED STATES. So Isreal has the power to make peace. And about terrorism, I agree, stupid lazy religious idiots cause problems. For muslims it is terrorism and suicide bombers, but for lazy stupid christians, we also do not follow Christ. All he preached was love, go read the gospels, and you will see that Bush is nothing but a terrorist christian, just like the jews that pissed him off at the temple. People make comments about terrorists and their Islamic backing forgetting about the other stupidity of other religions all over the world doing other evils other than terrorism.

your quote: "if we were STUPID enough to allow for some return of Palestinians as a gesture of good will, we will be wiped off the map in a couple of years when demography will take over."

Yes you are STUPID Elis, in thinking that returning some land to the Palestinians would cause Isreal to be wiped of the map. You made this statement not me, lol, so your stupidity is reflected in your own statements. I am sure you are not stupid enough to suggest that the Palestinians are going to stone all the jews to death, LMFAO.

Posted by john @ 10/02/2006 06:48 AM CST

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