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Fighting Hezbollah in the worst way possible


When this war began, I observed that Israel had every right to defend itself, but that "Actions that may be "justifiable" may not be wise." What is happening in Lebanon is shaping up as a first class debacle -a "me'hdal" in Hebrew. As usual in such cases, everyone is quick to blame someone else, and to offer their favorite solutions. Culprits are not scarce, including past and present Israeli governments, the UN, the USA and Europe. We cannot blame Hezbollah or Iran or Syria. When the lion gets out of the cage and starts eating people, we don't blame the lion. That is its nature.

Let's trace some of the errors that were made, to get us to the present situation.

In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon. That was mistake number one. Ariel Sharon can be blamed for that, but he had partners. The long occupation precipitated the rise of the Hezbollah. It may have begun as a grass-roots movement against the occupation, but it quickly was transmuted into a fundamentalist Shi'ite terror group that vows to wipe Israel "out of the world" as Hassan Nasrallah says.

In 2000, Ehud Barak withdrew Israeli troops from Lebanon with the blessings of the UN, but with no adequate safeguards against the continued presence of Hezbollah. For that we must blame Barak, the US government and the UN and the Lebanese government, if it is considered to be responsible for itself. Mistake number two. This mistake empowered the Hezbollah, which was now able to claim that force was the only way to deal with Israel successfully.

There are those who insist that Israel should have made peace with Syria. Syria would then remove its support from Hezbollah, the railway from Damascus to Haifa would open, and we would all live happily after. Maybe so. Or maybe Hezbollah would claim a great victory, Syria would remain in Lebanon, and Syrian guns would again be in the Golan heights. Not possible you say! Why? Because the UN would supervise the peace. This is the same UN that is in Southern Lebanon, and their effectiveness would be the same. In any case, the history of peacemaking efforts with Syria in that period is known. It is doubtful that Israel could make peace with Assad the Second more successfully than with Assad the First.

About this time, Israel also decided to cancel the operationalization of the Nautilus system, an apparently fool-proof defensive weapon that would have provided a method of destroying rockets using laser beams. Mistake number three. At the same time, despite the growing threat of Iranian and Hezbollah and Palestinian missiles, Israel invested nothing in civil defense. Mistake number four.

Israel also steadily reduced the training standard of reserve units, for budgetary reasons. The result is that there are few reserve units that are ready for combat. Mistake number five.

For six years, Israel watched as the Hezbollah armed itself and did nothing. Israel watched, the UN watched, everyone watched and did nothing. In 2004, when Hezbollah captured and killed soldiers and captured Elhanan Tennenbaum, Israel gave in to their demands in a shameful deal that traded dead bodies for live prisoners and further enhanced the prestige of Nasrallah and the Hezbollah. Mistake number six.

In 2005, during the brief and ill fated Cedar Revolution, neither Israel nor anyone else seized the opportunity to insist on disarming the Hezbollah. The US and France put their backing behind the puppet government of Fuad Seniora, which has a Hezbollah gun to its head. Seniora now praises the Hezbollah as heroes who defend Lebanon. Mistake number seven.

All of these mistakes were made before the tenure of the present government - made and inherited. The present government made a number of errors that were evident from the first day. The fact that there is a disaster in progress should have become obvious even to the government after Israel lost 8 soldiers in Bint el Jbeil. Even if that didn't faze them, the killing of 56 civilians in Qana should have given someone a clue that something is wrong. Even Amir Peretz should have understood that there is a problem.

IDF and the government wanted to combat Hezbollah in the worst way possible, and they proceeded to demonstrate the worst way to fight Hezbollah. Mostly, the government threw away the IDF book and the Israeli government book on how to fight wars, and threw in a few more errors. They proved the correctness of IDF doctrine by performing the control experiment: Do everything wrong and see what happens.

Military force is a last resort, after diplomatic initiatives have been exhausted. The model is 1967. During the long period of diplomacy, forces can be mobilized and trained. This is especially important if reserve units were not adequately trained. At least, the reserves should have been called up the first day of fighting. When war becomes inevitable, Israeli doctrine insists on carrying the war to enemy soil and out of Israeli territory ASAP. This is done by massed concentration of forces at key points, mobility and surprise. This requires masses of troops and armor from the first hours of the attack, following lightning air raids. Wars have to be short. This is dictated by economic factors and also by the world diplomatic situation. It is taken for granted that any war in which Israel appears to gain an advantage will be stopped by the UN after a brief period. The Israeli government acted, and keeps acting, as though it has all the time in the world.

Since the Intifada, and the experience of Jenin in particular, Israel should have learned that civilian casualties must be avoided. The US can kill as many people as it finds necessary in Falluja or Afghanistan. Nobody will ask the US to halt operations for 48 hours while they investigate why the civilians died in Falluja. This may be unfair, but it is the way the world works. Israel did not ignore the need to minimize civilian casualties, but it did bomb "Lebanese" targets such as bridges, the airport and oil depots, and it did kill a large number of civilians in Beirut in operations that were not directly needed to stop the rain of rockets on Israel.

Israel could not, as critics claimed, have used massive air power in Bint Jbeil. If it was not evident at the time, it was evident after the death of 56 civilians in Qana.

Granted that the Israeli government was justifiably afraid of another Lebanese war and all that it entails for political reasons, and granted also that the US had insisted that Israel cannot harm the "democratic" regime of Seniora. Perhaps this precluded a massive invasion. It did not preclude calling up the reserves and training them so that they would be there when needed. In any case, given such constraints, someone should have asked if the war was winnable. If it was not winnable, then no matter how just it might have been, there was no point in fighting it.

Israel also threw away the lessons that the US learned in Vietnam. You cannot stop supplies to guerrillas by bombing supply routes only, and you cannot win a war against guerrillas with air power alone. The obsession with air power is probably in large part the fault of Chief of Staff Dan Halutz, who comes from the air force, but it is also characteristic of US battle doctrine. Israeli battle doctrine after the Yom Kippur war of 1973 placed more reliance on artillery. For fighting guerrilla forces in urban areas, air power can have only limited use, especially if civilian casualties are an important consideration.

Depending on your political orientation, you can hold to different narratives. You can believe that an inexperienced civilian government was railroaded into a rash action by an overenthusiastic military. Or, you can believe that the military was held back from using all necessary force by an inexperienced civilian government influenced by political considerations. Take your pick. The result is the same.

Even after the war began, and it was evident to all that it was not going well, the government and the IDF continued to compound their errors and to ignore reality. Daily boasts about Israeli successes contrasted with the uninterrupted rain of missiles on Israeli cities. Civil defense failures evident from television reports did not produce any corrective action or any apologies. Shelters in Safed remained locked a day after they were shown to be locked and unusable. Day after day, the same errors have been repeated, accompanied by the same false assurances that everything is fine.

The idea behind the Israeli strategy is good: fight a guerrilla war with guerrilla tactics. Kill Hezbolla soldiers rather than trying to hold real estate, hit and run, "get thar fustest with the mostest" as Nathan Bedford Forrest, father of modern guerrilla warfare explained. This strategy requires two or three things that Israel doesn't have. The first is a very long time. Israel cannot operate in Lebanon for more than a few weeks. Guerrilla wars take years. The second is an infinite capacity to absorb casualties. The eight Israeli dead of Bint el Jbail caused an uproar in Israel and discouragement that was probably greater than that caused among Chinese Communists by the great retreat. This was used to good effect by the Hezbollah, who are well aware of how Israeli society works. It also requires having "the mostest" at all times. Israel failed to muster the needed manpower.

As international pressure grew, the Israeli government continued and continues to act as if it has all the time in the world. Disastrous errors such as bombing ambulances were brushed off with perfunctory apologies or often, with no apology at all and no explanation. Only when four UNIFIL personnel were killed did the IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs finally bestir themselves to apologize and promise an investigation.

Above all, the Israeli government and the IDF misunderstood the necessary objectives. From the first, the government talked about "hurting" Hezbollah. They did not understand that any confrontation that does not completely destroy Hezbollah makes it stronger. The game is set up that way. If Hezbollah kills eight Israeli soldiers it is a big victory for Hezbollah. If Hezbollah kills Israeli civilians it is a big victory for Hezbollah. If Israel kills Lebanese civilians it is a big victory for Hezbollah. If Israel kills a hundred Hezbollah it is an even bigger victory for Hezbollah, because Fuad Seniora hails Hezbollah as patriots who defend Lebanon. Heads I win, tails you lose.

It is not easy to know what to do in this situation. To stop now, without a real arrangement for disarming Hezbollah, would give Nasrallah and the Hezbolla a great victory. it would be a tragedy for Lebanon, for Israel and for hopes for peace and moderation. Using greater force or different tactics might work, or it might make a bigger mess. We can know what is clearly wrong however. It is wrong to make believe everything is OK, and to keep saying everything is OK, when everyone knows it is now. It is wrong to keep doing the same thing, when the same things isn't working. Continuing in the same way seems almost certain to give Hezbollah a great victory, because the potential setbacks are even greater than the ones behind us. We can imagine what would happen if Hezbollah succeeds in killing several hundred Israeli soldiers or bombs the Haifa petrochemical complex, or if contrarily, Israel kills hundreds of civilians in a single incident.

In 1968 IDF had a crucial encounter with Yasser Arafat and the Fatah movement in the town of Qarameh in Jordan, during a reprisal raid. Fatah held their own against inadequate and unprepared IDF forces. They were able to claim a "victory." It was the first Arab victory against Israel and it made the career of Arafat. Bint el Jbail was the Qarameh of Hezbollah. Hezbollah managed to kill eight Israeli soldiers. No matter that the IDF killed 26 Hezbollah on the following day. It happened for exactly the same reasons as Qarameh - underestimating the enemy, poor preparedness, too little force used in a dubious action.

The Israeli government and the IDF are not alone in this effort. The US, and more especially France, which did nothing to stop Hezbolla and which have propped up the shoddy Seniora government and tried to sell it as "democracy" were at fault too. Hezbollah would not have dared to do what they did without the consent of the Lebanese government, and the government would not have given its consent without the knowledge that its western patrons would look the other way. Uncritical media coverage of Lebanese casualties didn't help. A CNN correspondent admitted that what he had been passing off as "reporting" was unadulterated Hezbollah pressmanship, and there are others spreading false rumors in the "alternative" media (see Fog of War... )

We should all understand what is at stake. As I noted previously, Hezbollah is out to destroy Israel., but that was not the main point of that article. It is hardly news that Hezbollah is out to destroy Israel. The real problem is that each confrontation in which the extremists gain a victory builds the forces of insanity and is a defeat for the forces of moderation. Even in the Arab world, there were many who hoped that Israel would be able to rid Lebanon and the Middle East of the Hezbollah. Apparently, instead, Israel has succeeded in uniting Shi'ite and Sunni under the banner of Shi'ite Islamist extremism. Nasrallah is bidding to become the new Nasser, the new Arafat and the new Saddam Hussein, all rolled into one under the banner of Shi'a Jihadism. Thanks to a combined effort of the IDF, the Israel government, fashionable PC fascists and Jihadist groupies, careless, unprofessional and sensation-seeking media and misguided US and European policy, together with the moral turpitude of the Lebanese government, he may well succeed.

Ami Isseroff

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Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000493.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

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Replies: 52 comments

Let us hope that Nasrallah doesn't win.

One of the real tragic realities of war is that, once started, there will always be innocent lives lost. There is simply no way to avoid it. They may stem from flawed tactics, strategy, or geopolitical miscalculation. Who can tell. I served in Vietnam back in the sixties and witnessed all three in play.

The international community should have been the party dismantling Hezbollah all along, but it has refused. I don't think that's going to change. And, if there is a peace settlement and a buffer zone set up it is going to be administered by a toothless United Nations.

At this point it seems intractable to me. The only solution I see is for Israel to continute to do what the world refuses to.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/31/2006 02:10 PM CST

Zbigniew Brzezinski:-

"I hate to say this but I will say it. I think what the Israelis are doing today for example in Lebanon is in effect, in effect — maybe not in intent — the killing of hostages. The killing of hostages.

Because when you kill 300 people, 400 people, who have nothing to do with the provocations Hezbollah staged, but you do it in effect deliberately by being indifferent to the scale of collateral damage, you’re killing hostages in the hope of intimidating those that you want to intimidate. And more likely than not you will not intimidate them. You’ll simply outrage them and make them into permanent enemies with the number of such enemies increasing."

Brzezinski is not a man I would have expected to hear this from. This should give even the most callous war-cheerleader some pause for thought...

Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 03:17 PM CST

This is also worth reading:-


Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 03:36 PM CST

And here's British Labour Politician Gerald Kaufman:-


Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 05:04 PM CST

Am I missing something here?

Condoleza Rice is shaking hands with the Lebanon Prime Minister, who says he will join the Hezbollah against Israel, and also the Palestinian Prime Minister who is leading a people that voted into power the Hamas terrorist government. The US President has consistently emphasized that their war on terrorism is a war against terrorists and those (countries) who harbor them. Does that only apply if the USA is affected directly? What would the USA have done if 2000 rockets had been fired at them from Mexico over a three
week period? The answer is obvious. What Makes Palestine and Lebanon any different? It's time to quit speaking with a forked (diplomatic) tongue. How do the terrorists get into government positions? The (so-called Innocent) people elected them of course! And then the world get totally upset when these people that put them into power are killed and furthermore call their leaders good people?!?
Come on now - for crying out loud, take the blinders off!

Parents let their children be trained from a very early age to fight and to hate Israel and the USA (it won't stop there) and many of them to prepare to become suicide bombers. Should not the parents be held liable? Why is it that we hear the people all over, and in particular that supposedly impartial organization called the UN, continually accuse Israel of aggression, when if the Truth be told, Israel has never (in the last
several thousands of years) been the first to attack any of her neighbors, but are only defending its people (including many Arabs who prefer to live in Israel) and it's borders. Who started this anyway? - Those who are determined to wipe Israel off the map and to kill off the so-called “infidels” (anyone who is not a Moslem believer)!

We see demonstrations all over the world (against Israel and the US) when Israel is defending themselves against the terrorists, but how many demonstrations against terrorism do you see? Practically none.

There are many civilians who have died in Lebanon and many of them are truly innocent, and it has been proven that Hezbollahs are using civilians, particularly women and children, as human shields. However, those who work with the Hezbollah, and they seem to be not a few, are not innocent victims, but soldiers of war. The Hezbollahs that are cowardly hiding behind masks do not seem to care who they cause to be killed in their effort to sway world opinions and prevent Israeli attacks. The people who demonstrate their support for the Hezbollah terrorists are only receiving their due punishment.

It was asked on the news why the Muslim clergy is so quiet. It's been reported again and again that the recruitment of suicide bombers and terrorists is done in the mosques, because it is the belief in the reward
for martyrdom that drives them on. Admittedly there are Muslims that are not of the devoted jihad type, but let's face it, the so-called "extremists" are really going by the book and Hadiths (statements attributed to Mohammed) like this one; "The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will war with the Jews and the Muslims will kill them;....the trees and the rocks will say, "O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." (From Time Immemorial -Joan Peters). The western world need to wake up to the fact that the fight against terrorism is not just a fight against people, but against evil. The Moslems call the USA the “great Satan”, but then “he” has always been a liar from the beginning.

"It was truthfully said recently; "This terrorism will not end until the Muslim people will love their children more than they hate Israel and the USA."

Posted by Roy @ 08/01/2006 09:23 AM CST

That's right Roy.

Trite slogans are always much easier than reasoned analysis.

Posted by Chris @ 08/01/2006 02:40 PM CST

The Israel Defense Forces are not the proper instrument to prosecute war against organizations like Hnas or Hezbollah. Mosad and other super secret Israeli agencies could have done a better job of taking out the key players.

Posted by Nhanhure Chipanduranyika @ 08/01/2006 04:05 PM CST

Chris, concerning Matthew Yglesias 's article- 'Israel and its friends abroad need to face reality -- the problem that needs solving is the Palestinian problem'. I don't accept that Hezbollah should be allowed to get away with making a 'linkage' to Palestine in that way.


Posted by DavidP @ 08/01/2006 07:04 PM CST

Re: Gerald Kaufman. Ditto.

Posted by DavidP @ 08/01/2006 07:10 PM CST

ok, all this talk about diplomatic solutions to this problem are getting a bit old, I think everyone knows that Muslims and Jews are not going to get along in the middle east and the only way peace will ever happen there is if one side or the other ceases to exist. Now I know people will be up in arms about this comment as it is violent and involves one side being wiped out, but truthfully human beings are by nature violent creatures. I don't think Israels reaction to these constant rocket attacks is as strong as it should be, after all this time one thing I've learned is that neither side will ever see the other sides point of view. Solution? one side needs to win, and in order for this to happen one side will have to lose of course. I am of the opinion that Isreal should give one month for ALL hostilities against its people to stop, and if this is not achieved thay should just level palestine and southern Lebanon, the warning will give people time to ethier stop the attacks, or the more likely scenario, flee before the bombs come. I don't think this is anything more than a logical conclusion to the pasts lessons on the mid east. Now you can say that I am unfairly siding with Isreal, and so be it, I actually AM siding with Isreal right or wrong because if, like I said one side has to lose, people really are going to have to choose their side in this, I chose Isreal because I can say truthfully that if one side has to lose I would rather it be the radical religious militants that disappear as I don't agree with their religious beliefs or culture and the Jewish culture is closer to my own, thats the long and short of it. Now you say "but you shouldn't prosecute people based on their beliefs" and to that I say, well if sides are chosen I am basing my decision on what is best for my own country and for people like me in the world, I honestly don't even like the Muslim culture in my country because it does not fit with the general morality of my people and again if a choice is to be made I will always choose my best interest over another country and I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take. If the Muslim communities want to be violent, then a violent end should follow, and I hear all the time about how Muslim culture is not violent and how the "terrorists" do not follow the muslim way of life and all I can say to that is I have seen no evidence of a peaceful muslim way of life, even in my own country they kill there own over things such as a daughter dating someone of another race, this happened right across the parking lot from my house and the local muslim community stood behind this monster that called himself the girls father after he bludgeoned her to death with a dull axe. In my eyes him, his wife who helped TRY to cover up for him, and anyone that stands behind him are not fit to breath the same air as I do, and I would end that mans life without remorse if I though I could get away with it. I feel the same way for Hezbollah that fire rockets from the midst of civilians in order to draw the fire of Isreal so they will have a nice tragic event to rally around and garner MORE hatred towards the Jews. Anyway, my point is this: One side must win for this to end, I don't care much for the arguements for who is right or wrong, just the final outcome really matters, and I support Isreal in their fight against radical Islam, because I have chosen my side based on my travels in the Mid east and in Europe, and I can honestly say I would mourn the loss of the Muslim settlement in Gaza and Hezbollah/Syria/Iran's people very little as I have seen nothing positive from that culture and I believe that they follow a misguided and hurtful religion, and I will stand by my opinions because I don't care about all this religious tolerance crap, or the idea that all are equal because it just isn't true, and as soon as people realise that there is only one way to end a religious conflict, the sooner we can stop the wars in the middle east. One must fall. Its time to choose your champion.

Posted by Michael Langford @ 08/01/2006 11:07 PM CST

Its a brutal option Michael, but probabley the right one. Its time for the world to stand back and let them get on with it

Posted by Craig @ 08/01/2006 11:53 PM CST

This site is a shell of what it used to be and is an example of why moderate voices fail to rise in the Middle East. A peace deal that is comprehensive and deal with all the issues could help the moderates defeat the extremeists who call for violence to solve everything. Unfortunately peace activists want everything to work exactly as planned. There is no room for error and when deals don't provide 100% peace rather than try to figure out what went wrong we blame the other side and fight them.

Posted by Butros Dahu @ 08/02/2006 03:22 AM CST

Ref Chris' comment on Roy's posting: nasty little remark there Chris, think "trite" sums up your posting too. Roy's comment, whilst aimed more specifically at Islamic groups that promote Jihad/suicide bombing was accurate for all of us. If we valued our children as a future resource then we'd all think twice before sending them of on "crusades" to speed their progress to God.
If you really want trite, as seems to be your definition of it, I recommend a thorough reading of the Bible and the Koran. They can supply your "trite" in spades.

Posted by Peter @ 08/02/2006 03:38 PM CST

Its not tragic for either a dumb jew or a dumb muslim to die. I actually celebrate with a nice Coors Beer everytime a jewish idiot dies. I also celebrate but with less intensity, the loss of a muslim moron. YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, THEN GO MEET HIM, ASSSWIPES, Jews, you have faith, then don't cry about Katusha's, it is just God's Plan. Just rejoice in meeting you Daddy. Muslims, you are fighting a holy war, then you will also meet God. Funny thing is, is that both sides are STUPID.


Posted by john @ 08/02/2006 04:12 PM CST

"we shall delete comments with obscene or racist content" the publisher says. Well it's high time sombody did!!! Gutter language like the ones from "john" does not belong here.

Posted by Roy @ 08/03/2006 03:32 AM CST

Well Peter... if Roy's comment had been non-sectarian it would have been considerably less trite. Israel is quite happy to send its children into Lebanon (how old is the average IDF conscript?) or to put them in harm's way in illegal West Bank settlements, but Roy only sees the Arab sins in this regard. Such blinkers and double standards are what allow conflicts like this to continue.

DavidP, while you may not accept that there is a linkage between the Palestinians and the Hezbollah conflict, Arabs, including 96% of Palestinians, do. Therefore the linkage exists, whether you like it or not. If a settlement acceptable to most Palestinians could be reached, 90% of the power of the Israeli situation as a rallying call for Islamists would vanish. Which would be a big step forward in my opinion.

I don't think either Kaufman or Iglesias are arguing that peacemaking in Lebanon has to wait until the West Bank situation is resolved, or that Islamism was caused by the Israel question alone, or will disappear if it is resolved.

Posted by Chris @ 08/03/2006 02:26 PM CST

It's also possible to interpret "This terrorism will not end until the Muslim people will love their children more than they hate Israel and the USA." as "We will kill your children until you accept defeat". Not how it was intended to read I'm sure, but how would you read it if you were a Lebanese or a Palestinian today?

Posted by Chris @ 08/03/2006 02:31 PM CST

If the USA feels it has a moral obligation to protect Israel from all agressors, why don't they truly protect them by re-settling all the jewish people in Israel to North America. That way the only dangers will be all the violence and health risks associated with living in the West. Jew's will be safe from "crazy arabs" and the USA economy will be boosted by Jewish business. And God knows, how well the Jews go in business !
And peace returns to an Arabic Middle East.

Posted by Jason @ 08/03/2006 04:13 PM CST

...that may be a useful debating point to score, but it's not going to help much in the real world.

Besides, about 1/2 the population of Israel are from the region - they were displaced from Arab countries after 1948 or in some cases always lived in Palestine. There's no particular reason a Jew whose family came from Egypt or Morocco should go to the USA.

I think a better argument would be - if the US wants to help Israel they should pressurise them to make peace (by returning occupied territory) instead of bankrolling them to make war.

Posted by Jason.... @ 08/03/2006 05:36 PM CST

Jason. You do realise that Hizbollah state quite clearly that the land illegally occupied by Israel is in fact Israel itself, not some tiny bit of the region called the Golan heights, or the west bank? You do realise that when Syria says the same thing, that it also means the same thing as Hizbollah ( Syria has never recognised Israel, and claims it never will. Syria has never officially stopped being at war with Israel.) You do realise that Hammas, the government of Palestine does not recognise israel and claims that it never will and that it considers all of Israel to be occupied by aggressive Zionists - gthat all of Israel is illegally occupied. Where would you begin your negotiations with such people? Israel and the world await your answers with bated breath.

You mention the Sephardic jews that came in number to Israel in 1948. There were over 600,000 of them, roughly the same number as there were of palestinian regfugees. They did not become pathetic wandering refugees and political pawns. Having had their possesions and property mostly stolen by the countries they were forced to leave they were absorbed into Israel without fuss or bother to the wider world. The Palestinians would have loved that kind of magnanimity from their Arab brothers, the brothers for whom a good number of palestinians left israel so that those brothers could destroy it. Bad move; being Arabs themselves they should have known better.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 08/03/2006 06:14 PM CST

At first I was ignorant to the history of palestine. as I see It the Jewish people would do better to resettle in america. be there is no such place as a israel and if the peole of palestine continue to keep this in mind they will have to leave here in america will give them wyoming

Posted by mary derricotte @ 08/03/2006 11:49 PM CST

I come from a stateless nation. Casually, the statless nation where I come from has both a strong jewish and arab cultural background. And more over, for shame of us, finished in both cases with a complete genocide of these generous cultures from whose sources our culture drank a nice bit of enlightment in the dark middle ages.

Therefore, given our condition of stateless nation and our jewish and arab background, the story of the success of sionism, and also the story of Palestinian resistance to occupation have been subjects of enormous interest to many of us.

From my nowadays unfashionable tones-of-gray approach to reallity, both movements appear to have points of moral an historical and juridical legitimacy.

I'm very sad to see how the ideals inspiring originally both movements have been sinking into the dark muds of hate and irrationallity.

From the sionist side, the ideal of building an advanced society where jewish culture, one of the richest ones this planet has met, could express itself, and offer to the world its universality, is degenerating into the worse kind of acritic tribal nationalism, burying the values of enlightment, and blindly accepting the leading of a medieval militarist aristocratia, without asking to itself WHO IS TAKING advantatge of the paved in gold road down to fascism they are heading at.

From the arab resistance side, it's sad to see how a legitimous movement of resistance to colonisation, aspiring to give self-determination right to a mature and opressed society, is accepting the short term tactical benefits of violent and religious fanatism, burying any chance to base in the future a modern state, trustable and safe to its neighbours.

This is my analysis of the situation:

Israel claims to have a security problem, and is spending enormous amounts of public resources in short-term solutions. Military contention, agressive defense, anticipation operations...

Obviously, the raising of Hezbola and Hamas is a real problem. It would be innocent and romantic denying it. But I agree with Ami that if the problem is bad, solutions taken are going to become it worse, and my point is that this is not becouse of innocent mistakes but becouse of very precise selfish minoritarian interests.

A fast overview to jewish culture, history and tradition shows an enourmous "operative intelligence" tradition, able to exactly abstract the hard core of a problem from its external manifestations, and give creative solutions to solve it from the very root: From toranic tales to the sole development of sionism, we have plenty of examples: From the beautyful story of the two pilgrims arguing about a piece of cloth to the sinking of the Altalena.

Well, in my opinion, it's obvious that Arab turn towards fundamentalism is a no-way path, a lose-lose choice... but Israel policy in mid east has recently traited its tradition of dip-into-the-real-core of the problem. It seems to me that Israeli generals and planificators haven't spent more than 5 minutes analysing where does Hamas and Hezbolà strenght Really comes from. If they had spent two minuts in it, they would realize that the hard core of this strenght does NOT come from sirian and iranian ballistic tecnology or millitary assesment. It doesn't come either from the supposedly intrinsecal to Islam “slaughter the infidels” ideology. It’s obvious that the popular hold to Hamas and Hezbola comes in reallity from SOCIAL PROTECTION. Hamas and Hezbolà are not so different organizations from the Camorra and the Cosa Nostra: They just arrive where the state doesn’t. They offer education and health infrastructure and subsistance support where the state can not arrive. Becouse it doesn’t really exist, becouse it’s empoverished and becouse it is corrupt.

Well, a deep in the core look makes obvious that this militarist policy, will still reinforce more and more Hamas and Hezbola influence. Becouse the destruction of public coverage network is going to make population more and more dependant on private Hamas and Hezbola social protection.

What to do then???

As an Israeli general said in a lecture i heard, “there’s nothing I love more than a desperate situation”

Obviously an agessive policy is needed

It’s so damn easy that it’s hard to believe that nobody has thought about it before: JUST OFFER SOCIAL PROTECTION TO LEBANESE CHII AND PALESTINIAN POPULATION. Go to tthe core of the problem to weaken these organizations: Spend the half Israel is spending in american warfare tecnology in promoting coexistance and cooperation organizations aimed to give social assistance, health and educations. It will be cheaper, and as far as people will be less dependent on Hamas and Hezbollah, it will be, in the long run more more more safer.

After all, arab population is so desperated that any step forward is holy rain: Civil population will easily accept this help in exchange of accepting israel as a neighbour and not as an enemy to destroy. As far as I know, this was he original sionist strategy: make the arabs accept Jewish immigration by the means of mutual benefit.

But Israel is taking the opposite direction. As Ami notes, they are just adopting a very short term security doctrine, ignoring that the hardest they hit, the strongest (and more fanatized) religious extremists will come back. They are, as we say in two idioms from my country (I guess there are equivalents in many languages) selling grandma’s jewels to pay debts, or worse, trying to extinguish fire with gasoline.

I disagree with Ami in one central point. Ami’s tesis talk of a bad analysis, a mistake, a misleaden strategy... In my oppinion, far from not seing the root of the problem, Israelian military aristocracy has a very clear vision of the strategycal map of the situation in the terms i’ve expressed it. And they are acting with prussian precision to garant perpetuation of the conflict. After all, they jobs and prestige depend on it.

They are Intentionally and irresponsively boicoting any viable solution to the problem.

Now the bad news.

It won’t be me who will go and tell American millitary industrial hawks than not so many Fighters and high tecnology precision bombs will be needed, specially if they have to be paid by tax payers.

It won’t be me who will go and tell the yesha (ortodox settlers lobby) that public tax payers resources wasted until today in funding their funny boyscoutish lifestyle will from now on be invested in cooperation and development, aming to disable more effectively the influence of terrorist organizations.

I come from a country which has known the sad night of 50 years of fascist dictature, so i know what i’m talking about. As I said before, the road to fascism is a slope paved in gold, it¡s very easy to face it down, without even noticing you’ve walked too far in that direction, just to notice suddently that the way back is slope-up, and too hard. No people is deffinitively vaccined against fascism. Not even the most enlightned. And not even mine. Those who believe that national identity administration (call us sionists, or nationalists) is a strong tool to promote enthusiasm in the collective task of building advanced societies, must be permanently aware of these dangers.

In my opinion, irresponsible israeli militarist policy in lebanon is a step down and forward in the wrong direction.

Sorry for these post’s lenght.

Posted by gus @ 08/04/2006 02:33 AM CST

Hello Zed.

The 5:36 contribution was actually from me, addressed to Jason. I put the name in the wrong box.

What Hizbollah "mean" by occupied land is open to debate. They clearly do oppose the existence of Israel in principle, whether they have a practical intention to destroy it, let alone the means, is less certain. As far as I can see their interests are primarily confined to Lebanon.

But my comment concerned what I mean by occupied land, which is the Golan Heights, Shebaa Farms, West Bank and (effectively) Gaza. I reckon a negotiated solution satisfactory to most local Arabs would draw 99% of the poison out of the situation. This new war is increasing the poison.

You don't think Syria's technical state of war with Israel might have to do with Israel occupying Syrian territory? I'm pretty sure there is the scope for a deal there.

I would begin negotiations with Hamas by acknowledging that like most political organisations there is a big difference between rhetoric and practical politics. And that a 20 year "Hudna" might well be a permanent peace offer in disguise. Britain wisely accepted an IRA ceasefire; they didn't require the IRA to drop its claim to the whole of Ireland as a precondition.

I mentioned the Sephardic jews to refute Jason's notion that Israeli Jews are entirely alien to the Middle East. You cannot however compare them with the Palestinian refugees. Israel WANTED more Jews so obviously they would welcome new arrivals.

The surrounding Arab states weren't looking for an increase in population and the refugees weren't particularly looking for citizenship. The "pawn" narrative has some validity, but it's not the whole story. You also repeat the usual propaganda about Arab nations telling the Palestinians to leave - there is a little evidence for this but quite a lot more evidence of ethnic cleansing by Jewish militias.

Gus - Catalonia?

Posted by Chris @ 08/04/2006 02:18 PM CST

To respond to that lenthy page about Jewish superiority by gus .lets be real the jewish people are the blood suckers of the world thats why they dont have a home land they pimp .and enslve others when they come in contact with other people . when they came to palestine instead of being apart of there society they stole the land then move the masses of the peole to ghetto much like the warsaw ghetto from which you came . these are the people that you brag about using large words to enflunence the world of your compasion .

Posted by mary @ 08/04/2006 06:54 PM CST

Mary. You are so lucky that the shameful ignorance you have of the jews is shrouded by your anonimity in this forum. It protects you from the sheer enormity of the embarrasement you will feel about it when you get to be at least of teenage years and discover what forces in the societies Jews lived in created the Jewish movement towards Palestine. Believe me, Palestinians have absolutely no exclusivity to the understanding of suffering.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 08/04/2006 08:47 PM CST

Like my mother said Zed. all those claim to be Jews are not jews. and I guess your ancestry is from normandy because if you were a practcing juduasim you would know that you were not meant to have a homeland

Posted by mary @ 08/04/2006 10:16 PM CST

Normandy is good. I can live with that. The relatives in Portugal, Morocco and Iran may have some cause for questions about just how that happened but hey, every familly has accidents.

You haven't really got a clue about what you are writing do you!! The Rabbi may tell me I am not a jew because I am an athiest, but what does he know from Jesus-apples? F*** jewish homelands. Israel is a soveriegn state of Israelis. End of.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 08/04/2006 10:45 PM CST

Well Zed. I'll end on this note arn't those bombs going off around youare din't you notice you are in the middle of a hornets nest getting stung and what does any one with since do YOU RUN now Zed wyoming is the place for come to wyoming were you will find peace until the native indian runs off .remember that is your history and your future.

Posted by mary @ 08/04/2006 11:19 PM CST

Chris---> Yes, Catalonia. thanks for noticing. But anyway, the reason why I didn't express it explicitly is becouse it's not ethical to take profit of the freedom of opinion Ami offers us in this web about mid east just to make proselitism of our cause. Catalan question as a stateless nation is only relevant in the terms I expressed in my post (08/04/2006 02:33 AM CST) in order to give a personal context to my opinion and my simpathies and criticisms towards both sionist and arab resistance movements.

For the same reason, I would ask Mary and some others to make a wise good use of freedom of expression: Xenophoby is for free, it's up to you if you choose that mind empoverishing way. The only problem is that is is a web on middle east, and this is an article on recent Israeli strategy in Lebanon. Please concentrate in your posts on that topic, not in replying after a 5 second posts reading in diagonal if u like or dislike jews or if they are uglier or handsomer. Please respect the rest of readers' time.

Posted by gus @ 08/05/2006 03:50 PM CST

Since this is freedom of speech I dont think to tell you what to read or write. Now the issue is occupation of the palestinian land until that is adressed there will be no peace in the middle east.

Posted by mary @ 08/05/2006 09:48 PM CST

Michael wrote: 'they follow a misguided and hurtful religion'. Is the real tragedy perhaps the hijacking of Islam? I am a Londoner who as a young flower-child (and a daughter of the Marxist Left) discovered Islam in the form of Sufism and thought it the coolest thing around, who haunted the Islamic galleries of the British Museum, before a kind of madness seized the Left, before guys whose unashamed views on women, gays and Jews would have instantly relegated them to the crackpot Far Right were they not their religion became the darlings of the Left, before British citizens who supported Khomeini were appeased by the Church of England and the Vatican, before a guy who speaks warmly of the Jamaat-i-Islami became a knight of the realm, before women swathed in black became a normal sight in London, before what Koorosh Modarresi of the Worker Communist Party of Iran calls an 'anti-human' ideology took hold of Islam, before feminism itself was hijacked, such that harmless Left-wing feminist Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee was named 'Islamophobe of the Year'.
Billions of people, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, do not take every line in their holy books literally because to do so is the road to insanity. You can seize on lines in the Bible to justify being a fascist and indeed the Christian Far Right does just that.
Islam is artistically and intellectually a great civilization. It is perhaps no exaggeration to say that the Muslim propagandists who have come to the UK don't want people to know that, that they actively desire that 'Islam' is considered co-terminous with intellectual and emotional inadequacy and just the one Book. They then of course scream 'Islamophobic!' at anyone who points out first mildly and progressively less mildly that in a free society people think opposing things, that people with one point of view generally think that people who think the opposite are talking rubbish and pernicious rubbish at that, and that the rest of us cope with that.
This is not a peculiarly Islamic insanity, but the madness that overcame Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Christendom periodically.
In 1945 the liberating armies undertook a programme of deNazification. I leave to your imagination the consequences of even thinking of a programme of deIslamism. Nonetheless, there are some views that are past their sell-by date, shall we say, and I frequently feel I live in an asylum in which I am required to consider proponents of such views perfectly normal fellow-citizens.
The support of the Western Left for Islamism has to be confronted.
I do not think this war can truly end until Muslim leaders arise who says No! No, we are not still in the Stone Age. No, we do not despise art, literature, philosophy, freedom. No, women are autonomous beings.

In the mean time, some sites for sore eyes

Posted by Ysabel Jehan Howard @ 08/06/2006 10:08 AM CST

I think your number two mistake is misleading. Where did you get that Israel left Lebanon in 2000. Israel never left Lebanon. Yes Israel removed its soldier from most of Lebanon. Israel kept the Sheeba Farm area under its control claiming it is not Lebanese territories because it capture it from Syria. Israel need to understand that any piece of land that is disputed land is not their to take. On a show I heard an Israeli official saying that the Israeli settlement in the Palestinian area are not build on Palestinian land. He said these area were disputed land according to the UN and not Palestinian land. I think he was saying the truth but the problem is if something is disputed does not make it automatically an Israeli land.
Israel since 2000 keep flying its fighter jet into Lebanese air space. If Israel think that it is not problem flying its fighter jet into Lebanon. Than, Hizbollah also think it is OK to capture some Israelis soldiers from inside of Israel.
Also, Israel kept some lebanese prisoner of war that took into Israel after year it left Lebanon in 2000.
Also you say Israel left Lebanon with the UN blessing so what does mean. Are you telling me that because you used the word UN make Israel is not innocent and that it fullfied its obligation. I think Israel needed to leave Lebanon with the blessing of party that is fighting it i.e. Hizbollah and not some other third party that Isreal/US brought over to give Isreal troop removal from most of Lebanese territories ligitimacy.
I can see that Israel did not leave Lebanon with good intentions, it left Lebaon with bad intention and with the idea that it willl settle that score with Hizbollah later which now.
It somebody has a one foot on your land can you say that he is not in my land.

Posted by Hanna Frangiyyeh @ 08/06/2006 11:12 AM CST

If you are going to kill a snake, would you cut off its head or would you cut off its tail? Iran is the head of the snake. Cut off the head and if the tail still moves, kill it. Plain and simple.

Posted by Dan @ 08/06/2006 10:54 PM CST

When you take homeland or even just land away from a people, place them in refugee camps, in some instances moving into their homes and farms, can you expect anything other than anger and fighting back? The US did the very same thing and the only reason we are able to live in peace on our own shores is that we destroyed the native americans whos land we took and we so overpowered them they didn't have a chance. I wonder what Israel expects, they are surrounded by the people whos land they took. And then they didn't stop, try to be good neighbors, they invade and continued to take more land. I realize I am not a historian, but isn't this what happened to the Jewish people prior to the formation of Israel? People seem to have such short memories. Now with this latest mess, Israel has angered even people who weren't political and were just living their lives. I listened to a Lebanese man speaking on NPR. He and his wife managed to get their children out of their house before is was completely destroyed by a bomb dropping on it, they are now living in a crowded refugee shelter with nothing that isn't given to them by the Red Crescent. He stated that he was neutral about Israel, he just wanted to work and enjoy his family and neighbors (all the houses around him were destroyed and his friends and neighbors didn't get out)now he is no longer neutral, he didn't state exactly what that means but I have a feeling we can all figure out what it means. The United States and Britian have big responsibility here for making this bigger nightmare than it already is. How interesting that we who are so gungho about democracy, pick and choose who we support, mostly dependent on who can make us more money. Another big problem is that we here in the US and our diplomates and military don't seem to have any understanding of the mind set of the Arabs in the Middle East, particularly the way "honor" and other intangibles are forming what is happening so we just blunder along throwing money and weapons into a boiling caldron.

Posted by Darla @ 08/07/2006 12:40 AM CST

Darla is right, she is not a historian...In this case the Jews are playing the role of Native American, their population totals less than 1% of the 22 Arab nations that surround it, and are harbored into a reservation that is smaller than the state of New Jersey.

The Jews did not steal the land, there were just as many Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine as there were Arabs, the difference between the Jews and the Arabs inhabiting Palestine in 1948 is that the Arabs had somewhere they could go. To my knowledge, the Temple Mount was constructed by Jews for a Jewish Temple, however now there is a mosque on top of it...keep talking about 60 years of occupation, what a joke...knowing that both Christianity and Islam were borne out of Judaism, you would think they could give us our 8000 square miles of land and go on with their lives...this whole thing is going to destroy us all, and everyone is to blame.

When I visited Israel in June, I talked to Israeli Arabs...although they had varying opinions on all, they all had health care, a job, and were pretty thankful for it. For even they admitted, they are still better off in Israel...there was a Free Zone in Kiryat Shimona for Arab, or Lebanese poor to come to for free health care or other humanitarian services by the Israeli government...and from what I understand the same is available for Palestineans in Beer Sheva...Those damn Jews.

It would be nice for all nations to get over this, so that the world can go raise their children and enjoy our lives, and that goes for everyone!

Posted by Alan @ 08/07/2006 03:35 AM CST

What is a shame is the hate that is there, but folks, there has been turmoil there for centuries, it all has to do with the teachings and promotions of hate to children, I feel this is an area that is suppose to be religious and the following of God, give me a break its so archaic its sad. Here in the USA we have all religions and I know there is dislike between them I experienced it via my first marriage but eventually got along well with her parents. The consideration of killing one of them or them me,,was never entered into it.
Most of the USA has been sheltered, even though we do have our problems. But these tribes of today, its totally shameful the way they treat each other, its the lack of respect for others and themselves. The lack of education and the narrow minded thoughts possessed by them. This is a small planet we need to try to get along them that don't want that, we need to take care of business. I think the words are doing onto others as you do for yours. These selfish seekers and extremists need to be taken down. As I’ve seen in other writings, we can't stop with what we got going; it’s becoming a training ground for these people. Anyone that can kill anyone for what they perceive as power and glory, we need to shame them to no end, whatever it takes and stops punishing our guys for stuff they have been trained to do. I've bounced around a bit but in short, we need to go door to door whatever it takes and put these slime dogs on there knees and get them crawling as slime they are.
Men in uniform wherever you are fighting for a good cause, hopefully not the power of oil or some stupid religious war. My hat is off to you men and woman of the service, your doing what your direction is. Also Is Israel as above I read don't make more mistakes and stand back and let the opistion grow, its going to be there until you get rid of it.

Posted by Rick @ 08/07/2006 08:48 AM CST

Can anyone tell me exactly what it is the fighting is supposed to accomplish? What is the end goal? When you can answer that, then you know the cause. It cannot be about land. Land will never be possesed by anyone. I think most people know that. Land will always change hands, it will always be here, people will not. It cannot be about religion. Religions may spawn heated conversations, but ultimately the arguments run in circles. It cannot be about political superiority, Israel does not wish to govern it's neighbors, it's too much work. The events unfolded as such. A soldier was captured, to be used as a barganing chip. Israel felt insulted, in other words they had their itty bitty Pride hurt. Israel lashed out at Palestinians. Hezbollah saw this and felt insulted and a bit irritated that Israel thinks they can have pride. Hezbollah has prisoners in Israel too. Hezbollah ups the anty. They grab two soldiers. Now what are you going to do Israel?, are you bigenough to smack us around like the Palestinians? In other words Hezbollah had their itty-bitty pride hurt. Now Israel is in a REAL predicament. They look like absolute fools, the kids on the play ground took their ball. That's it! says Israel..THEY WILL ALL PAY!..they proclaim. The war is a war of pride. How F'n stupid is that?

Posted by OMFG @ 08/07/2006 11:41 PM CST

I like what Mary D. suggests doing: extend the hand of helpfulness as Hezbollah and Hamas have done for civilian populations in order to garner support, loyalty, affection and respect.
There is way too much testosterone in this mess and if the mothers of the world would unite, we would have a very different world.

Posted by Tova @ 08/08/2006 09:21 PM CST

I don’t know what to say after reading all this. My grandfather was killed by the Nazi. In fact, he actually survived the concentration camp but was a human mass of skin and bone riddled with tuberculosis and died choking to death. After all the horror stories told to us by our grandmother, I cannot help but to hate the Germans, more so, the fascist. In fact, the military. And when I see the State of Israel –that was the epitome of hope and rebirth, applying tactics and systems that frankly create a terrifying parallelism to what the Nazi did, I tend to despair. Only yesterday I read Olmert press release and in brief it sounded like the man who said “We had the moral right; we had the duty to our people, to destroy this people which wanted to destroy us.” That man was called Heinrich Himmler (on October 4, 1943). We need new tactics. New men. Men that finally see that our modern prophets (Luther King/Gandhi) have more to say than the old ones. When they claim that injustice breeds injustice and hatred kindles hated. That there is no getting “rid” of your enemy; no “final solution” for the Jews or the Arabs. But, like I said, I don’t know what to say after reading all this. God almighty, grant us wisdom to understand the power of compassion.

Posted by Jorge Olavarria @ 08/09/2006 08:47 PM CST

Pope Innocent II said "Kill them all for God will recognize his own."
This is false. If he would've remember to read his Bible. God is the God of the living.
The dead have nothing. It is better to be alive. Those in power wouldn't die for what they believe in. They don't put themseleves in the battle. They are a bunch of cowards who would send your children off to die for thier fortunes and praise them for their patriotism. This is what safety has become to the leader's of the world and unless we fight back against them we will lose all wars. If we were to hold our leaders accountable with the penalty of death as an option we would definitely have fewer wars and more likely strong comprimises that woud hold people in awe of the great magisty of it. Our for fathers in this USA fought with the promise that would win and save lives and attain freedom. The money of those times were their allegences and power was granted by those allegences.
Unfortunately, now we don't have those sorts allegance. MOney talks and bullshit walks. And people sell peoples lives for their security.

Posted by WOW @ 08/09/2006 10:12 PM CST

First and for most, applause goes to the writer who put the facts together very well and unbiased. Secondly, everyone needs to realize that it's not a war of Muslim against Jews, it's countries versus countries. Isreal has attacked villages of other faiths i.e christians in both Palestine and Lebanon. War does not discriminate against gender, age, and most of all religion. The only reason why it 'seems' like an Islamic war against Jews is because they are the higher percentage in these countries hence are the ones standing up for their homes. In the words of the infamous Rodney King... 'Can't we all just get along'

Posted by Ash @ 08/10/2006 06:17 PM CST

Right now what is going on is that Hizbullah has unfortunately released a deadly chemical agent into northern Israel. This agent is due to spread very quickly. The agent was supplied by Iran through Syria in order to create a situation that would escalate the current war and deter the attention from Iran. What I can't understand is why they would release a chemical agent and still try to buy time in order to finish their nuclear project? The plan to use this nuclear weapon against Israel, so why the agent?

Well, there is an explanation for this. The escalation will certainly provide Israel with a good enough reason to fight back hard. This will somewhat reduce the tension when Iran fires a weapon of mass destruction.

Posted by Boris @ 08/11/2006 02:28 AM CST

Israel has done big mistakes over and over again. Army troops really cannot win in guerillas warfare especially with the moeslems. I've read articles that those moeslems had strong believe in fighting and ready to die as martyrs and go to heaven, whereas we the Israelites fight to live. At the end our men die for nothing !! Two (2) of my relatives died in fightings those past useless wars with arabs. Talking about Lebanon war, Israel should be willing to negotiate and act wise before straight away attacking others just because of 2 soldiers being kidnapped. This is really stupid !! The Israel regime is really like killing it ownself. Violence is not the solution..Negotiate..Negotiate..Ehud Olmert..step down..before you caused the downfall of Israel nation. Sooner or later Israel nation will fall if we continue with this violence and aggression.

Posted by Andrey Cohen @ 08/11/2006 06:27 AM CST

Ladies and Gentlemen.. The real fact is that everyone is sad with the war(s). The happiest men NOW are the wicked ARMS DEALERS and WAR EQUIPMENT SUPPLIERS ! They are getting richer every moment from every bullet or missile that is targeted at the jews, moeslems, christians or anybody. In other words, they earned their living with blood money. Not many people realise this. They wanted the war to go on and when a battle ended, they will re-create another one.

Who are these arms dealers and suppliers ? They are the ZIONIST in the US and UK, of course. Most profits on arms sales are generated from West Asia !! Israel nation should be a Promised Land for the Jews to live peacefully but the ZIONIST entity is actually promising Israel nation with DESTRUCTION.

The ZIONIST do not want the Jews, Moeslems or Christians to live together in peace. Not all ZIONIST are Jews thou, some are from the Turkish decendent that converted to Judaism but had no faith in God or the Torah. Religion or Humanity aspects are not their concerned as long as they achieved their agenda. ZIONIST are worst than ANIMALS.

My late grandfather was force to immigrate from Armenia to Israel in 1950. His elders brother and sister was tortured to death by the ZIONIST when they refused to leave. The ZIONIST are Jews that killed the Jews !
According to my late grandfather, they lived together with the Christians and Moeslems community in Armenia peacefully. Why can't this be practise in the Promised Land ISRAEL ? Simply because the ZIONIST would not let it to happen.

Through my 5 years study and research on the West Asia crisis, one can conclude, if there is no ZIONIST aggression, then there will be no HISBULLAH or HAMAS or FTAH or whatsoever it will be. Not many people realise the fact that the ZIONIST entity had done a lot of damages to Jewish society and the whole world. I had discovered many facts that it was the ZIONIST conspiracy that destroyed the WTC in US, and also they are the people who created BEN LADEN. They had planned for this 5 years in advanced to make United States attacks Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course, more profits on ARMS SALES. I am still researching further on all the truths and facts that I've got on this issue.

From now on, forget about Hisbullah or any terrorist activities. In order to achieve PEACE, Israel should release all the Palastinians and Lebanese prisoners to their respective authority, and Hisbullah or Hamas should also do the same. Fill-up the now emptied prison cells in Israel with all those wicked ZIONISTS. Next, get the rulers from Israel, Palastine and Lebanon including the Rabaii and Moeslem Clergy to sit and discuss on the territories for Palastinians and Israelites. Compromise and Negotiate to solve this problem. Whatever belong to the Jews return it to them, and whatever belong to the Palestinians, they shall deserved it. That is PEACE.



Posted by Jay Sampson, New York @ 08/11/2006 11:47 AM CST

The new hostilities seem to have diverted everyone's attention from the root cause of growing Arab anger: Israel is becoming an apartheid state. Ann Frank would be ashamed. The Iranian extremists are delighted.

The proposed July 26th Palestinian referendum on the Prisoner's Document could have become another chance to showcase Palestinian democracy. Whether we would have appreciated the results of the vote is beside the point. The point is to embolden the Palestinian moderates. All is lost if the moderates are crushed and pushed into the shadows.

Israel cannot long survive a war in the north without using atomic bombs. The United States and Europe worry about their choke point: oil.

It is time to begin removal of the northern populations to Beersheva. Before extremism rules Pakistan too.

It has been many centuries since a nation found itself warring against a religion. Israel is a crusade of the Jewish people, and the Islamic radicals are astute to see this.

Most unfortunate that a religious war would happen in our age. While atomic Israel fights an atomic Islam, do not forget the religious extremism that led Zion to flee Europe for Israel and Palestine 1897-1945. Whose was the blame goes far deeper than Beruit-Damascus-Baghdad-Tehran.

James D. Stilwell
United States

Posted by James Stilwell @ 08/11/2006 06:28 PM CST

Was thinking the other day...how can you deter someone who does not fear death? How would you discourage those who would plot to murder civilians and would welcome the death penalty? Life behind bars, not so bad. They can still walk about outside from time to time, read, watch T.V...basicly they are reduced to living as a child would, under someone else's thumb. Now imagine a fate worse than death. Amputate their arms and legs..and poke them full of I.V.s so they cannot even starve themselves to death to escape. These people can never be rehibilitated. They mean to muder as many people as they possibly can. And they are not fighting for their freedom. They are fighting to oppress the rest of the world. For those who were involved in 9/11, 7/7, and now this latest bombing plot, I say let them live out the rest of their lives as stumps with nothing to stare at but a wall while stewing over the consequences of their actions. Allahs going to sit this one out....

Posted by Drutch @ 08/11/2006 06:49 PM CST

Every man, woman, and child living in Israel is part of an occupying force that has illegally obtained the land of Palestine through the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous people of that region. Every "settler" is a combatant. May the aim of Hezbollah ring true with each strike. Israel is a cancer - and while she weeps at being an underdog, not one letter of history proves this to be true. The UN resolutions against Israel have piled like cord wood, and yet she weeps. UN resolutions considering Israels actions toward Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Jordan, deplorable; and yet she still weeps.

Posted by Zakariya @ 08/12/2006 06:46 AM CST

The situation in the "so called Middle East" will not be resolved as long as there are are people who have actual and historical memory of the maneuvers made by political operatives to bring the state of Israel into existence.
Mention is always made of the declaration by Hezbollah to bring down the Israeli state. The only justification for the state of Israel as it is presently situated are military and political.
Would that the indigenous peoples of North America, who were victims of the imperialistic and militaristic advances of Europeans to reconstitute themselves around the world, had the political and the military might to resist their seizure of the land!

Posted by Imbonisi Hondodiop @ 08/13/2006 06:28 PM CST


read up on a little history, it may make the entire subject a little easier to understand. how far do you want to go back?


Posted by bull horn @ 08/16/2006 07:25 AM CST

Here is a powerful and amazing statement on Al Jazeera television. The woman is Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles. I would suggest watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be active.


Posted by bull horn @ 08/16/2006 07:32 AM CST


They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

1988 - Najib Mahfooz.

1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat

1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewail

1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad


They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber

1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner

1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Art hur Ko rnberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen (& Rita Levi-Montalcini)
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis

The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge.

The Jews are not promoting brain washing their children in military training camps.

The Jews are not teaching their children how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims.

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.



Author Unknown

Posted by bull horn @ 08/17/2006 10:16 PM CST

yes the jews did not do anything bad, lol, they did not kill Jesus. your right the jews that you mentioned represent, hmmm, lets see, 100 divided by 60000000 jews approximately is what???? 0.0000000000000006 percent. lol. All this with no calculator needed. Your just an idiot.s

Posted by john @ 10/02/2006 06:53 AM CST

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