MideastWeb Middle East Web Log
There is no doubt that Israel is at war. Nine soldiers were killed yesterday, as well as about 19 civilians in the past 15 days. Even without listening to the news, I would know there is a war. It is always the same. F-16s streaking by our windows make a racket, setting off the alarms on half the automobiles in the neighborhood. Don't live near an airbase in Israel during a war.
The Israeli government, for its own reasons, has decided that this war will have no name. Very well. War, I hereby dub thee "The Generic War in Lebanon." I suspect that as usual, the "Generic" label is related to saving money somehow. Insurance premiums go up in war zones, and investors get scared away, and perhaps the government becomes automatically responsible for civilian damages. However, the Generic war is not cheap in human lives or material damage. It has cost hundreds of casualties on the Lebanese side, and nearly forty Israeli casualties so far, as well as billions in damages and hundreds of thousands of people made into refugees on both sides of the border.
The Generic War in Lebanon is another chapter in the battle between two sides in the Israeli-Arab conflict. We are not talking about Jews and Arabs. It is not news that there are two sides in the Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, the important "sides" are not those that are divided by borders. Israeli and Palestinian societies, and indeed all of Arab and Muslim societies, are engaged in nearly mirror-image internal debates about how to achieve their goals: Freedom, dignity, self determination and a bright-future for their children.
A faction in each society insists that the other side "only understands force," and that nothing can be accomplished by attempts at conflict resolution and dialogue. They insist that willingness to compromise is only viewed as weakness. The Palestinian version of this approach has been called "armed struggle." The Israeli version has been called "Iron Wall." It is named erroneously after the policy of revisionist Zionist leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky, who wrote in the 1923 'Iron Wall' article that the Arabs of Palestine would never accept Jewish presence in Palestine unless Jews had a means to defend themselves. He was talking about a tiny independent police force at the time, which he dramatized as an Iron Wall against Arab violence. A later generation, faced with a different reality, concluded that Arab states would not accept Israel unless they could be convinced that they can never beat Israel in a war. Israelis of this camp also insist that international public opinion will always be mobilized against Israel because of the Arab/Muslim majority in the UN. Some commentators (for example) have insisted that the current Israeli action in Lebanon is an extension of that policy.
Another faction in each society, the "peace camp," insists that non-violence, concessions and understanding can bring about a settlement, while use of force only perpetuates a "cycle of violence." The peace process that began with the Oslo D.O.P. in 1993 gave hope that compromise and conflict resolution would quickly bring peace. There was a growing realization in both societies that the welfare of each can only be achieved when there is peace. This realization does not come to fruition because of the growing strength of extremists. The extremists grow in power because violence is rewarded, which seems to prove that "the other side only understands force."
The peace process was sabotaged by the advocates of "force only." In Israel, the settlers lobby militated against concessions. On the Palestinian side, Iraq, Syria and Iran funded, trained and equipped, the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah as well as the PFLP and DFLP and extremist wings of the Fatah. The aim of these groups was not to further a resolution of the conflict, but to ensure that there could be no resolution and no end to violence. Any sign of progress toward peace or compromise was greeted by horrifying, senseless and inhuman terror attacks, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. As the "threat" of a final settlement approached, the extremists organized a coordinated orgy of violence, dashing hopes for peace in 2000.
After the violence had abated, Israel withdrew unilaterally from all of the Gaza strip. The supposed arch-proponent of the Iron Wall thesis, Ariel Sharon, announced that Israel cannot rule over another people, and that painful compromises were needed for peace. However, the withdrawal was perceived as a reward for use of force. It precipitated the election of the Hamas to lead the Palestinian authority, and a rain of rocket fire on Israeli towns and villages. Hamas has declared repeatedly that, as stated in the Hamas charter, they are unwilling in principle to ever make peace with Israel, and would only consider a "truce" even if Israel were to agree to all Palestinian conditions. Their election to head the Palestinian Authority, which was created to negotiate peace with Israel, was illegal, explicitly violating the terms of the Oslo Interim Agreements. Violence had been rewarded with legitimacy. The donor nations who had been supporting the Palestinian Authority in order to encourage the peace process, attempted to force Hamas to come to the negotiating table and abandon its program of destroying Israel by stopping aid payments. The Hamas reacted with more rocket fire and the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.
Similar developments took place in Lebanon. The international community failed to intervene effectively when Lebanon was virtually taken over by the PLO in the 70s, subjecting Israeli border towns to repeated attacks. Israel invaded Lebanon, and was drawn into the Lebanese war, an eighteen year fiasco that seemed to prove the futility of armed intervention.
Israel withdrew to the international border in the spring of 2000, a move validated by the United Nations as compliant with UN Security Council Resolution 425. However, the international community did nothing whatever to guarantee Israel's border. The Hezbollah, ostensibly formed to end the Israeli occupation of Lebanon in 1985, actually took upon itself the declared task of ending the state of Israel.
The Israeli withdrawal was taken as a demonstration that force works. It paved the way for the Palestinian violence that erupted at the end of 2000 and eventually for election of the Hamas in the Palestinian territories.
In 2004, Hezbollah kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers and an Israeli civilian. UN observers filmed the kidnapping, but did nothing to stop it. Rejecting the use of force, Israel exchanged several hundred prisoners it was holding for three dead bodies and Elchanan Tennenbaum, acceding to Hezbollah demands. Once again, force was rewarded.
Even after the UN Security Council passed resolutions 1559 and 1680, repeatedly calling for disarmament of militias, neither the Lebanese government nor the international community did anything to enforce the rule of law. As a result, Hezbollah was emboldened to cross the border, kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers and commence rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. Clearly, the Hezbollah and Hamas must be stopped if the peace process is to be saved and international law is to be upheld. They are in business to make war. They are not interested in a solution, because that would put an end to the war, and put them out of business.
Nonetheless, there are those in the international community who still want to reward the use of force, and encourage those who stand in the way of peaceful resolution of the conflict. They want a solution bases on "dialogue" that will consider the "grievances" of the Hamas and the Hezbollah.
The "grievances" of Hezbollah and Hamas are understood by the Israeli government, and should be clear to everyone else. The Hezbollah program states:
Both groups are opposed to negotiations. The Hezbollah Program declares that negotiations are intrinsically off limits:
Hamas and Hezbollah insist on wiping out Israel by force. Their "grievances" are the existence of Israel and of a peace process. While they exist, there can be no peace.
Unless these groups are stopped, there is no chance that moderate forces will be empowered in Middle East. Their success, and the international legitimacy that is granted to them, will be the inspiration for similar tactics all over the Middle East, and will lead to many more "generic wars." However, it appears increasingly doubtful that Israel alone can stop the Hezbollah. Stopping the Hezbollah requires a determined international effort. Iran and its allies have mobilized a massive and vociferous campaign to bring about a cease fire under terms that would leave the Hezbollah intact and force Israel and Lebanon to surrender to continued Hezbollah extortion. As Michael Young explains, The Lebanese really blame Hizbollah. However, Lebanese who secretly blame Hezbollah for the war, nonetheless feel impelled to blame Israel in public, and quite naturally, to insist on an immediate cease fire, rather than insisting on Lebanese compliance with UN resolutions.
Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000492.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to email@example.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.
Replies: 82 comments
The Final Solution: Society as a whole agrees to end currency based systems. All offenders be beaten to death in public. If you don't work you don't eat. Governments have limited power. They can only enforce the will of the people. The will of the people can be underminded by representatives. This cannot be allowed. Offenders should be beaten to death in public. Proxy to the will of the people is the down fall of all societies. Absolute intollerance of coruption is necesarry. Compassion to offenders is weakness in the eyes of an opportunist. Capitalism must cease to exist. Communism must cease to exist. Fascist governments MUST be dismantled. A new order is the only path. One order to drive all men. We must reach an accord. The world is no longer my back yard and my neighbors. It is only prudent the global society reach a consensus. One world, one order, one iron fist with which we rule. The time of non-conformity has past. We must become one to achive peace. Peace is only viable through intollerance of those that endeavor to disrupt it. The world can either fall into chaotic war or a global civil war. A world war will end in imperial superiority. A global civil war will end in a new age. The latter would be the more difficult, though rewarding, path. Without communication wars cannot be won. Without coordination people cannot achive a common goal. Our Tyranical masters have taken extreme measures to prevent a unified effort. Currency = Power. Power in the hands of the few are boulders on the backs of the masses. We must destroy the cycle of paper and promises. Free men owe nothing. Your mothers and fathers were slaves and so you too shall be. We must destroy the cycle of paper and promises. Children should learn to suffer their peers. This breeds respect. Empathy is not natural, it is taught. Children should not fear life. Neither should we. A cleansing must transpire. We must agree on our new reality. What we choose will be. Fear is only serves you more of the same. Change is empowering. Fear of change leads to death. This is your one life, live it for you. Be in control. Be the masters of your world. We do not have to tolerate the actions of the imperialists. We can end their reign. WE CAN CREATE NEW. TO CREATE YOU MUST FIRST DESTROY. If we stand still we will go like the deer in the headlights. If we show mercy to offenders our children will see. They will not know right from wrong. They will become indifferent. They will become us. We must become focused as a point of light. As the point of a dagger. with clear intentions me must free ourselves of this madness, of the tyranny of men.
Posted by OMFG @ 07/28/2006 02:16 AM CST
According to a poll 87% of Lebenese support Hezbollah:
As Justin Raimondo of antiwar.com points out Michael Young is brought out whenever the mainstream media needs someone to give the events the right spin:
I'll trust the facts of the poll rather than Michael Young.
Posted by Butros Dahu @ 07/28/2006 09:22 PM CST
I cited your essay in something I posted just a while ago. I do think it's time for the free world to do more in support of Israel in this battle against terror. If there is ever going to be peace in the Middle-East it will only come when free men stand up and say to the terrorists "enough is enough."
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/28/2006 10:42 PM CST
You mention several times in your posting that "Once again, force was rewarded". I find it ironic that you do not see the rewards of force from the United States and Isreal. Did the United States not use "force" in Iraq to achieve their goals??? Is Isreal not using force right now in Lebanon to achieve their goals????
Both the United States and Isreal are reeping many, many rewards ALSO from using force.
Dear Ami, whether a civilian is killed by a Katusha rocket, a suicide bomber, or and F-16 fighter jet, the results are the SAME. Close to 500 civilians killed in Lebanon is an act of terror. The Isreali government gives apologies for killing innocent civilians, so what??? Apologies ARE NOT ENOUGH. Apologies does not remove the title of terror.
Hizbollah is a terrorists organization that has killed 50 civilians.
Now, if you do not think that numbers do matter, than I suppose the Holocaust would be a big deal if only 50 jewish civilians did die during Hitler's regime. Therefore, logically speaking, numbers do matter right??? 6 million dead is a huge number. I think that I can safely assume the Hitler is a terrorist.
Asside from looking at numbers, I know that some will claim one side is justified over another. Isreal's logic is that they are justified because Hizbollah started it. I don't know why? But when I hear that from Bush and the Isreal government, the words, "waaa, waaa, Mommy, he started it" come to mind.
Question for all the Isreali supporters, why is it that when Hizbollah and Hammas cry "waaa, waaa, Mommy, he started it" it is not OK, but when Isreal does it, everything is justified. Sure, Hizbollah did start it with the kidnapping, and Lebanon not following UN resolutions, but who started the hatred for Isreal. I think the answer to that is simply 1948. Anyone who has an ounce of honesty knows what happened then and what fueled all this anger in the Arab World.
Now for the supporters of the right to Isreal to exist, I have an interesting analogy. What if the United Nations voted tomorrow to remove 3 million African starving people and give them land in Isreal and call it Africana. Would that not upset Isreal? Of course not. That is exactly what happened in 1948. I am well aware that all land changes hands thru out history. We can't return the United States to the native Indians, but for Isreali supporters, do not say the ROOT CAUSE of this crisis is just the kidnapping of 2 IDF soldiers.
Posted by john @ 07/29/2006 04:27 PM CST
I am dismayed that Ami Isseroff, whom I used to respect, appears to support this despicable campaign of war crime against the people of Lebanon.
Well, it suddenly makes more sense that he links to the likes of Little Green Footballs. My own link to him is now removed.
Posted by Sirocco @ 07/30/2006 12:16 AM CST
Sirocco is right. Ami used to be a intelligent person, but he's now been reduced to sprouting the crudest of cliches. The prisoners' document show that Hamas is least moving toward a 2-state solution. What is the Olmert government doingn to promote the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state? By placing a separation barrier in the heart of Palestinian communities, by annexing the Jordan Valley, by creating a Jewish belt around East Jerusalem, the Olmert govenment is making a Palestinian state an impossibilility.
Posted by Frederick @ 07/30/2006 06:59 AM CST
And, one more thing, Ami: It was precisely because Hamas was moving towards a 2-state solution that Israel reinvaded Gaza, just as Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to forestall a more moderate approach by the PLO.
But this is all irrelevant to Ami, who's become the Benny Morris of bloggers.
Posted by Frederick @ 07/30/2006 07:12 AM CST
Notice that Ami does not mention the violations commited by Israel against the Lebanon's sovereignity since 2000 -continuous overflights into Lebanese air space, kindnapping of Lebanese nationals, refusal to provide maps of location of land mines.
Posted by Frederick @ 07/30/2006 07:35 AM CST
I'm appauled by your comments..don't you people know that disagreeing with an Israeli is "ANTI-SEMITISM"!!! I hate this word..all it stands for is .."I'm a jew I should be able to commit what ever dirty, ruthless crime there is ..and if you disagree then your an evil person for not letting me have my way...whaaaaaa!". Israelis can hide behind their little mantra that they live in hell and all the boogey-men Arabs are out to get them. That doesn't make what your government does ok. Just as you want to be treated as individuals and not be judged by the actions of your extremeist government, so too should you give the same respect to the citizens of your neighboring countries. Your double standards are not obscured. We all see what values and morals you hold. Those values will be your undoing.
Posted by OMFG @ 07/30/2006 04:34 PM CST
"It is always the same. F-16s streaking by our windows make a racket, setting off the alarms on half the automobiles in the neighborhood. Don't live near an airbase in Israel during a war......." Wow, had no idea how tough life could be!
Posted by Paddy @ 07/30/2006 08:34 PM CST
I like your comments OMFG, totally agreed.
Posted by john @ 07/30/2006 11:33 PM CST
Posted by no @ 07/31/2006 09:07 AM CST
37 children slaughtered cannot ever be condoned- is Mel Gibson right ? Stop fighting and murdering innocent people. There will be a massive price to pay for us all irrespective of religous values
Posted by Steve G @ 07/31/2006 10:42 AM CST
"Don't live near an airbase in Israel during a war."
I see someone else has already pointed out the grotesque lack of perspective on display here. Perhaps the statement was ironic. Hmm.
Ami has pointed out in a subsequent post that he thinks the war is a mistake, however he seems to be taking the line that a better fought war might be OK (ignoring the fact that you cannot really separate Hezbollah from the Lebanese Shia commuity as a whole at present). The Benny Morris jibe seems apt.
I don't see why the insistence on the Hamas and Hezbollah charters. Sure they are unacceptable documents, but a charter is one thing, realpolitik another. The PLO amended or at least fudged their charter when it became necessary to do so and I think we can assume that these other organisations have at least the capacity to do the same.
Clearly Hamas is not a homogenous organisation and there are elements that are more inclined to compromise and others which want to fight. A reasonable aim would be to try and boost the former and marginalise the latter. Current policy does the opposite.
Hezbollah is a native Lebanese organisation. They have no prospect of ever being in a position to destroy Israel (and apart from a few border incidents have shown no signs of attempting it) so their Programme is largely irrelevant. Their support is not simply based on conflict (neither is Hamas') but also on their social programmes and perceived incorruptibility. The dynamic of Islamism is complicated and I suspect none of us fully understand it, but to reduce it to policy on Israel again betrays a lack of perspective. The way to counter Islamism must be to come up with better politics - there are plenty of reasons why political Islam provides no solutions for the (ahem) masses. External attacks on the other hand, only strengthen these forces of reaction.
But let's have pressure for a ceasefire NOW to stop things getting any worse, then we can have a debate about what to do next.
Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 02:36 PM CST
Here's a quick solution to the problem, and why the US is implicit in, and condones the murder of hundreds of Lebanese. The US congress apporved 2.67 BILLIOIN in aid to Israel this year. Solution: G.W. Bush: "Hey Olmy, why don't you stop murderizing those poor Lebanese folks over there?" Olmhert: "Never! they are zee scum of zee earth! I will wipe them from zee face of the earth." G.W.Bush: "Well ya see Omy, that's gonna be kinda hard to do when yall have no fuel, no guns, no rockets, or hell... no toilet paper to wipe your asses with. If you want that aid package, you better knock that **** off!"...problem solved. The US of course is playing the innocent bystander card and pretending to mediate with the double whammy token "African-American" Woman Secretary of State whom everyone knows is not qualified for the position, but is of course the PR spokes-woman for the US. She has no wartime or military negotiating experience, unlike her predecessor. Now if this was a price war over Oil, she would be qualified. Get her out of Israel and Lebanon, and start playing hard-ball with these evil bastards GW!
Posted by OMFG @ 07/31/2006 07:17 PM CST
lol, true again, OMFG.
Posted by john @ 07/31/2006 08:44 PM CST
Funny, I do believe that the Jews existed in Judea before Islam was even founded...as a matter of fact, the last time I visited the Old City there was a Mosque on top of the ruins of a Jewish Temple. It must have been the Jews that caused the ruckus? As a matter of rationale, the Arabs must be the occupiers!
It is laughable to those of us who can actually see straight that 15 million Jews in the world are such a threat to those who would have us iradicated. The fact that we are finally strong enough to stand up to your tyranny must threaten you severely, enough to even sacrifice your own and increase the likelihood that this will end with everyone's destruction.
Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry.
In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.
Why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936-39? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967?
And when they proposed a UN Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of "upset" then?
The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state -attempted to drive the Jewish state into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al-yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not "repress" them.
They stood by during the holocaust and in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres.
In 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.
And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians dream daily of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, well think of how many times in the past you bothered us.
In any event, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in the US who could not give a damn....NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM!
Posted by Alan @ 08/01/2006 12:37 AM CST
Umm..they were after the pouches of gold around your necks? (South Park) Stop your Semite whining These people are of no serious threat to you, unless you happen to be the one outside the cafe when the blow themselves up. And don't proclaim to be defending yourselves, that bridge was crossed around noon of the first day of bombing. What your government does and garbage like you that supports them is MURDER. I know that word probably tickles your balls to hear it, you sick piece of ****. MURDERERS nuff said!
Posted by OMFG @ 08/01/2006 02:15 AM CST
I would like to commend the Israelis who will be marching this weekend in Tel Aviv for peace! Teach your neighbors, insight your brothers and sisters to get a strangle hold on your government. They are representative of you! Don't allow them to drive your destiny. Power in the hands of the few are boulders on the backs of the masses! Make an effort to communicate with your neighbors across the borders. As long as your governments and groups who are in power lead you to water you will drink poison. Come to an understanding with your neighbors..they are just like you..we are all children, we cry, we feel joy, we have the same desires. Life was not meant to be lived by few on the backs of the rest of us. It is time we made a change to all take our places, stand as Men adn Women. In control! Masters of our own destiny! Draw the lines. Expose the enemy! Draw up your arms and take back what is yours, your life!
Posted by OMFG @ 08/01/2006 03:01 AM CST
OMY...as the Hezbollah puts cribs and women between themselves and the gunfire, and you speak unmercilously out of both sides of your mouth, we that know better enjoy having our balls tickled by the sight of beasts achieving their destiny of ending up in hell. Even other Arab countries support the death of the Hezbollah and those that pretend to be as committed.
We survived a German people who elected Hitler and survived an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we survived a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. We survived the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we survived the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We survived a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we survived the arch-enemy of the church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.
We survived all of this, and we will survive in spite of you because we apparently have what Hezbollah and Hamas do not...A WILL TO LIVE.
So as you, and those like you spew your hate, we will live on. The only difference is that we will live in prosperity and your people will continue to live in poverty as your leaders live like kings. And you may call me a sick piece of , but after work I will go home and enjoy a game of catch with my Son. Have fun ducking the missles...and give my love to Nasrallah, as I am sure that he has YOUR best interests in mind.
Posted by Alan @ 08/01/2006 06:09 PM CST
Ummm..I'm Native Amierican(Ani-Tsalagi)..not Arab..and I do know what it is like to have your people extinguished. My people fought back in some instances. But my tribe in particular, lived among the whites for a hundred years before we were dragged from our homes in the middle of the night without our shoes and forced to march over a thousand miles without a knowledge of wilderness survival. We lost that while living with the whites. I'm certain Hezbollah does need to disband, People here didn't like our tribes that fought back either, not even Ani-Tsalagi after what we were put through. That DOES NOT give you the right to randomly lob missles at civilian area's. If you people were truely worried about not killing children or the innocent you would have waged a ground war where you could be sure you are hitting your targets and not children armed with teddy bears. Your arogance and self-righteousness is evident in the **** you spew from your mouth. It's garbage like you that solicites the hatred of Jews.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/01/2006 06:46 PM CST
This laughable talk of Israel indiscriminately killing civilians is really old, the civilians used as political timber to fuel hate against Israel died because Hezbolah fires rockets from their midst. If there where no rockets there would have been no bombs. I feel little compassion for a people that have promoted hate and violence from their very beginning and all the while claiming to be victims.The only thing they are victim of is misguided archaic and outdated religious beliefs that suffer from a lack of progress into the modern world. I will not welcome groups that practice blatant oppression of women, and tolerate family violence in their midst, nevermind the separation they construct between them and the rest of the communities in my country. I used to be a tolerant man when it came to the beliefs of others but it has come to the point where I need to choose between tolerance for others, or the survival of my countries belief system. I do not care if you say I am intolerant or whatever other nonsense you want to claim I suffer from, the truth is I do not like the beliefs and culture I am being told to tolerate, and I do not believe I should be told what I should and should not respect, I will believe what I see and not what I am told to believe and from what I see the extremist cult that calls itself Islam is not the world I want my children to grow up in, and I don't feel the slightest twinge of guilt at the thought of it being ended entirely. It is time to stop playing this game of tolerance and choose to stand on one side against the other as there can obviously be no peace in the middle. From where I stand the history books will show us that we cannot trust Muslims to respect us unless we join them, and I would not join that cult anymore than I would Branch Davidian in Texas, they are equally backwards in modern society and I will not be tolerant of a religion that revolves around intolerance, at least the Christians and Jews can live together in peace, something that cannot be said for a group that can not co-exist with even other sects of its own religion. So, flame away if you will, your opinions are lost in the reality of your hateful nature and sound like an angry child that is striking out at a punishing parent with hateful words.
Posted by Michael Langford @ 08/02/2006 12:00 AM CST
Go ahead, dig your own grave.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/02/2006 03:03 AM CST
If you are a Native American (I have no reason not to believe you) than you more than any other should understand the factless and merciless killing of a people for no other reason than the advancement of a culture NO MATTER HOW SICK THE INTENTIONS ARE. And as horrible as that holocaust (of its own kind) was, how can you not come to feel for a Jewish people that have suffered more than any other throughout history.
You can say whatever you want in regards to the last 60 years, Lord knows that just about every facet of society has screwed them up in their own way...however, this has never been true prior to that. I would love to hear your composition on the history of the oppression of multiple civilizations by the Jews, please name just one prior to the current "occupation." Please name just one society that the Jews ruled and used their power to hold down those common folk.
It disgusts me that a representative of a true minority that knew many sorrows on so many counts, can take the side of a religion that advertises the destruction of all non-muslims, including YOU and is taking actions to follow it through.
I would instead like to believe that the State of Israel is the last frontier for a group of people that just want to be left alone. Think of it as a Jewish reservation that is out of bounds for all those who surround it. Unlike the Native Americans that were wrongly hoarded into "camps" and told that all would be better, we welcome the boundaries. It is going to be hard for any Islamic Fundamentalist to convince the world that 6 million Jews in the middle of 500 million Muslims are a threat. If this was true there would be no treaties with its more moderate neighbors.
Please tell me that a Native American could never be convinced that Fascism is an acceptable way of life......and please understand that no matter what the opinion, in America you have the right to express it......with all of our faults and political arguements that is what we have always been fighting for, and I truly believe in my heart that this is Israels intention as well.
Posted by Alan @ 08/02/2006 04:55 AM CST
the bush administration acuses syria and iran of supporting hezbollah....but the weopons to isreal from usa keep on coming...isn't that a contradition...hezbollah cannot have support from anyone against a terrorist organization(yes, isreal is a terrorist organization, there is no justification of killing innocents in qana and others, the socalled collateral damage out weighs the military casualities in lebanon), yet this war criminal is allowed aid from USA and britain its ONLY allies in a repeated chapter in the history of middle east.
at first i wanted a ceasefire....but now i want hezbollah to win...the arab people have long been subjected to too much crime by this "civilized terrorist state" called isreal....
by the way...this is the start of a long war...once the arab countries decided enough is enough...american and israel will be in for the shock of their life....its a shame that the muslim countries are not united and squable over sectarian problems as american policy really exploits it.
one more thing....
Posted by saud @ 08/02/2006 12:04 PM CST
SAUD, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU. I AM A US CITIZEN AND AM SICK OF ISREAL'S AND THE UNITED STATES BULLSHITTT. I WANT HIZBOLLAH AND HAMAS TO WIPE ISREAL OF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. ACTUALLY BACK TO 1947 BORDERS, LOL, WHEN THEY WERENT' THERE AT ALL. I ENJOY EVERY IDF'S SOLDIER'S DEATH WITH A NICE AMERICAN BEER. I WAS REALLY DRUNK THE DAY 9 BASTARDS DIED. LOL. NOW ISREAL YOU WANT PEACE, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE IT. JEWS ACROSS THE WORLD, DO YOU EVER WONDER WHY YOU ARE HATED, I'LL TELL YOU WHY. MOST JEWS ARE NOT BLACK, THEY ARE NOT ORIENTAL, PHYSICALLY THEY JUST LOOK LIKE THE COMMON AVERAGE WHITE MAN. SO WHY ARE THEY HATED???? CAN'T BE RACISM RIGHT?? THEY LOOK THE SAME. I'LL TELL YOU WHY THEY ARE HATED. ITS IN THEIR FAITH, AND THEIR VIEWS OF EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS NOT JEWISH. THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE THE CHOSEN ONES. THEY ARE PREFERED BY GOD. THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT THEN OTHER CIVILIZATIONS. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HATED. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN 60 CIVILIANS, DIED IN LEBANON, THEY APOLOGIZED, WHEN UN MILITARY DIED, THEY APOLOGIZED, WHEN THE ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE OF LEBANON IS BEING DESTROYED THEY SAY THEY ARE NOT AGAINST THE LEBANESE. THEN THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS ON TV THAT THIS WILL TEACH ANYONE WHO WILL LOB MISSLES AT ISREAL. DO YOU SEE THE CONTRADICTION??? THATS OK, NOTHING WILL CHANGE THESE IDIOTS. MEL GIBSON WAS NOT DRUNK, HE IS STATING FACTS THAT MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT SAY OUT LOUD. I WILL SAY IT. AND FOR ALL THE READERS IN THIS FUCCCKKKEN WEBSITE, ESPECIALLY THE AMERICANS THAT FAVOR THESE BACKWARD MINDED ASSSHHOOLLES, I AM PROUDLY ANNOUNCING THAT I AM AN AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER. LOL.
THATSS RIGHT I TEACH IN YOUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. YOU WANT TO CAUSE PROBLEMS TO ARABS ON THEIR LAND, WELL I CAN EDUCATE AND AM EDUCATING THE FUTURE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES ON HOW RACIST AND LIARS ISREAL IS. I AM EDUCATING PEOPLE, WITH SUCCESS BY THE WAY, THAT THE JEWS ARE NOT THE CHOSEN ONE, BUT GOD ACTUALL LOVES EVERYONE IF HE DOES EXIST. YOUR MORALLITY BULLSHITTT WILL NOT WORK WHEN I AM THROUGH MAKING PEOPLE SMARTER.
Posted by JOHN @ 08/02/2006 04:27 PM CST
I am 4th generation American of European descent. My family was not here during wars with Native Americans or during slavery. I am not biased toward any side in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Alan and OMFG, I am intrigued reading both your points of view. I think it only makes sense that OMFG sides with the plight of the Palestinians since they, like Native Americans, lost their land to a stronger force. I am grateful that the current Native American tribes here have chosen the path of peace, and I am for helping them overcome the great hardships they have endured.
Israel needs to allocate land to the Palestinians so that they can pursue what any people need: self determination, means to raise a family, etc. I propose that either the northern or southern part of Israel become a true Palestinian state - or Gaza needs to be joined with the West Bank. If, after the Palestinians settle there, they continue to attack Israel, well, destroy them! At least they were given a chance for peace. At this point, they've been given nothing. (Of course, if one radical Palestinian group decides to attack Israel, that does not give Israel the right to destroy an entire country as they are doing in Lebanon now). Hopefully, if the Palestinians are given a chance to flourish, their moderates will greatly outnumber their radicals, and they will choose peace.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/03/2006 09:44 AM CST
As a former university-level English instructor and former university press manuscript editor, I do not believe that John is the school teacher he claims to be. John's writing is rife with spelling and punctuation errors. Nor is invective (foul language) an effective rhetorical device. John, if you would cite evidence to support your thesis, as Alan does, you would stand a better chance of convincing readers that you have something valid to add to a discussion. Alan is right that Arab terrorism against Jews in the Holy Land goes back to 1920, long before the state of Israel was founded. The Jews massacred in Hebron in 1929 weren't recently arrived Zionists either. They represented the old Yishuv, Jews who had lived in Palestine since the 1880's and their descendants. In fact, they were called "Palestinians," as were all people living in Palestine until 1948 (and until someone in the PLO got the idea of using the name "Palestinians" to mean the Arabs remaining in the part of Palestine offered to the Arabs by the U.N. for a state of their own at the same time the Jews were offered another part of Palestine and established the State of Israel. That was the 2nd partition of Palestine, the first having occurred in 1922 when Britain gave Transjordan (now Jordan)--the largest part of Palestine--to an Arab ruler.
Obviously, there are good Jews and bad Jews in this world of ours. There are also good Christians and bad Christians. And there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. (There are even Arabs for Israel, and they have a Web site of their own.) Sadly, the bad Muslims seem to have the upper hand in Gaza and Lebanon now and are making lots of trouble. Muslim terrorists are, in fact, making trouble in many parts of the world. Some of us would like to encourage the Muslim moderates who are not terrorists intent on hatred and the killing of other people. You, John, seem to be full of hatred for other people. I hope that things will change for you.
Last, John, OMFG, how about studying some history? How can you possibly expect to understand the complex situation we have today in the Middle East without knowing anything about what its first causes were?
Posted by Marjorie @ 08/03/2006 09:55 AM CST
Fisrt of all I don't see anything I have said here that would contradict history. Also, I do not protest the right of one to defend themselves. Jewish extremists should stop putting words in my mouth, you only make yourself appear foolish. I do protest the way Israel (offends) another country. That is their own words, they are launching an offensive. Terrorism, Patriotism, Freedom-fighting..these things are not people. They are ideas. Israel WILL NOT win a war by killing people, especially innocent people. That will only spawn more in the support of Hezbollah. The only way to detroy an idea is to win the minds of those that hold the idea. Protect yourselves by "DEFENDING" yourselves. At the same time you should be working with the moderate factions and ,as crazy as it may seem, carrying out diplomatic relations with Hezbollah. That is the only path to peace in this situation.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/03/2006 02:07 PM CST
I thought that Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia were the moderate ones. Proof of intent by signed treaties and an end to violence on all of those fronts by all signed parties. I haven't read about an offensive into Jordan, or an offensive into Egypt, as they have abided by their respective honorable words. It seems there is an Islamic faction that feeds the areas needed to forward their cause from many different sources that feeds the fire instead of working to extinguish it. The Oslo accords signed in 1993 by Arafat were broken by the PLO and their lackies, the pullback of Israel from Lebanon was supposed to be sponsored by the UN who continued to allow Hezbollah to position rockets aimed at Israel for 6 years. There is no country that could allow this to occur.
Arafat continued to repress his own people, with the map of his new state in front of him. He continued to steal from the aid meant to feed, train, and support the Palestinean public...just ask his wife, she is sitting on the pile of cash in Paris. Funny, haven't seen any offers by her to help aid the country...Forbes magazine reported Arafat worth $300 million in November, 2004 before his death, and others estimated it to actually be over $1billion. Where is that outcry by the Palestinean people. If there was no economy because of the Israelis, where did Arafat come up with $300 million? Certainly a meager old man didn't need that kind of money to live such a common life.
When I was in Israel last month, we were visiting Ein Gedi, an Oasis by Masada overlooking the Dead Sea. My wife and I met a Palestinean couple that was to be married in a few months. After finding out a few things about each other the conversation of course turned toward the conflict. She lives in Chicago and is going to school, he is an architect living in Lod (within Israel.) They fear going back to Gaza because they are Christians, not Muslim, they told us that they are hated worse than Jews because they are seen as converts. Amazing that these Christian Palestineans fear for their lives as well.
They told us of peaceful Palestinean farmers in Gaza that had groves of orange trees that could do nothing but stand by while militants used the trees as cover to lauch Quassams into Sderot...when the Israelis reacted and leveled the farm, as well as killing one of the family members that was in the grove, the family then turned against Israel. I can easily see this dilemma, the militants brought the wrath to a civilian area, but the Israelis brought the destruction. How can you rationalize a situation like that? Who is at fault? The militants, or the ones that gave them the orders and the rockets? The Israelis for blanketing a civilian area?
The idea that one party or another is innocent is completely assanine, however, each can be, and will be judged by the lengths they are willing to go to for peace. Mr. Ahmadinejad's comments today will eventually be his undoing as well. You cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth, saying "Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented." Who the heck does he think he is kidding.
Whatever the solution, I can come to this conclusion after reading past Israeli leader's writings. Israel is not going to give up the right to exist, even if it means fighting 'til the last Jew.
Posted by Alan @ 08/03/2006 09:16 PM CST
Of course they turned against Israel, punishing the victims never gains favor. It is a very frail game of trust for those that are victimized by their own people. Take this scenario for instance: A family of 3; Father, Mother, and 10 year old son. The father abuses both the mother and the child. The mother calls the Police. The police arrive, the father holds hostage the mother and son. The police rain bullets on the house killing the mother. The father escapes. Who is the son going to be most upset with? This is the same scenario that Palestinians and Lebanese have to deal with. Their is no where for them to turn. They can't trust their own and they can't trust Israel. But, if they join forces with their extremeist groups, perhaps they can exact revenge on those that murdered their loved ones. You would do the same if you were in their shoes. This is not the way for Israel to win the minds of the Paestinian or Lebanese people.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/03/2006 11:43 PM CST
Alan, will Jews ever give Palestinians some land and let them completely rule it themselves?
Posted by SKnight @ 08/04/2006 02:32 AM CST
I am sorry SKnight, what were the views in Gaza last year...Israeli soldiers pulling Palestineans from their homes and places of worship? Come on....
Again, I am stating that no one's hands are clean...but what is Israel to do, allow extremists to launch rockets at Sderot? Isn't it the Palestinean security forces job to stop the launches? Just like it was the responsibility of the UN "observers" to keep the northern border of Israel clean or at least report unusual activity, namely military (per UN Security Council 1559)?
So can you state to me that it was the ruling party in Gaza that is at fault? After all, the agreement on the pullout of Gaza was that they could have it all in the name of peace. By allowing (we all know they have no control) the militants access and freedom to operate in Gaza they in turn began the entire conflict that is happening in Gaza now? We all saw the Israeli military pulling their own citizens out of Gaza...we all saw the militants move in and turn what was left to dust...and we all know that the Palestineans will never know peace because Hamas will never allow it...when the Palestinean people have peace and prosperity, there will be no need for Hamas and it would only show that Hamas was wrong. I have seen the cartoons they show children on TV that Jews are pigs and deserve to die, have you? I have seen the documentaries of how the children play "kill the Jew" in the street with fake guns......my 6 year old son plays with Hot Wheels cars and legos...is this the society you are saying is going to be the next generation of peace negotiators? In my view the new society in this area is being bred for failure.
The world is ready to help every citizen of Gaza, I might even be swayed to send them a buck or two. But no politician is ever going to get caught sending any significant aid to the ruling government as long as they continue to promote violence, not even members of the Arab League.
It is interesting that I can even see the side of, and even feel some sympathy for victims of all these governments that can't seem to get their heads out of their asses....however, can't seem to sway anyone to see Israel's point of view?
And this is what I believe to be the root cause......maybe someday, the other side will be able to look from the other side of the Kinneret and then there can be peace.
Posted by Alan @ 08/04/2006 05:01 PM CST
The reason we, as Americans, are so critical of Israel is that we see Israel as the responsible party in the region, the older brother if you will. We know it is a lost cause to expect Palestinians, Lebanese, or Syrians to get control of their governments. We therefor expect Israel to act in a responsible manner that will further the peace process, not riddle the country side with mortars and bombs; creating a perfect environment for a terrrorist breeding ground. Tribal cultures demand above all else respect. They do not want to be treated as children or lesser beings, even if they are acting as such. Israel cannot pound the earth until these people cease to exist. The only way to win the war they have been fighting for nearly a hundred years now, is to change how the people in the region perceive Israel. Israel must play the game. They must negotiate with Hamas, and with Hezbollah. We in the US were arrogant enough to believe we could wipe out terrorism through force. Look at the state of Iraq, it was a safer more stable country when Sadam was ruling it. Israel can only defeat Hezbollah by changing Hezbollah, and the same is true of Hamas. Hezbollah and Hamas are, in the eyes of thier people Resistance Fighters against a great opressor. Give them nothing to resist and they quickly become terrorists. All but the fanatics of those factions will cease to support them.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/04/2006 06:42 PM CST
I understand the Israeli point of view, Alan. Many Palestinians are horrible, violent people. But Israel, the U.S., and Great Britain are the blame for making many of them that way -- when 730,000 of them were displaced in 1948. Now, this population of refugees has grown and festered into the mess that we have today. It will take more than simply pulling out of Gaza and saying, "See, look at these awful people!" They need a territory which can sustain life, not like the s**t that they have now, not like the *hit* the U.S. government gave the Native Americans.
I agree with OMFG that all parties must sit down together and negotiate. And, all the countries of the world must pull together to solve this problem. Israel has a right to exist, but so does an Palestinian state. We need to get all parties involved to agree to where that state would be and that Hamas and Hezbollah will accept this new state as 'good enough' and not go after Israel. All parties will have to compromise. There are a lot of radicals on both sides who have a problem with compromise, but there are also many moderates on both sides who want peace.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/05/2006 08:05 AM CST
So because Lebanon, Syria, and the Palestineans are incapable (OMFG's words not mine) of leading their own people to a state of mind where they value life and liberty, it is Israel and the US's job to convince (not negotiate, you cannot negotiate with extremists) them that there is a better way?
The Palestineans had their own state right in front of them, Arafat had an agreement on a linked West Bank and Gaza strip from Rabin. Instead of taking it and moving to improve the welfare of those he represented, he instead chose to begin the Intifada...Mr. Knight, I understand your concern, and appreciate the simpleness of your solution, but wouldn't you think that if it was that easy it would have been done already?
Israel cannot allow the training and recruitment of terrorists so close to its borders and everyone knows that this is why the US, UN, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria cannot find a solution to the militant problem. If it was so simple, than those Arab states should provide refuge to the "displaced" peoples, but you see no support from them either. And who do you negotiate with? Nasrallah? Abbas? Ahmadnijad? Assad? Who represents them?
Omy, I appreciate the debate, but I reject the reasoning that Israel and the US owe it to sovereignties that cannot control their populations simply because they are what you identify as the "responsible party." The Jews have been taking it on the chin much longer than the Muslims, every one from the Egyptians to the Romans to the Nazis have been kicking them around since the beginning of recorded history. It seems the world is very upset that after over 5700 years of being bullied and masacred, Jews can finally bring the fight to 'em.
I say enough already, I say that if the world united as one and declared that it would not be held hostage to this fascist point of view, the Palestinean people would have a state, Lebanon would be free to chose its own direction, Iran could have nuclear power, and maybe we could even solve the problem in Darfur. The only question is, WHO WILL LEAD US THERE?
Posted by Alan @ 08/05/2006 09:06 AM CST
It is not what we owe those states, it is what we owe ourselves. Peace does not come in the payload of cruise missles. It comes only through understanding, an aligned perception. Israel is only giving birth to future hostilities against it. Religions have survived for thousands of years in spite of the religious wars, why? You can't exterminate idea's. Only give new meaning to those ideas. Compromise on all sides is the only solution, and compromise begins with an out stretched hand, not a gun pointed in your face. So you see, what Israel is doing is self destructive, they are destroying their own security, just as Hezbollah and Hamas have destroyed theirs, someone must make the first attempt at negotiations. Since Israel, in my opinion, is the most civil party, then Israel should make the first move tword peace.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/05/2006 06:43 PM CST
I agree with your perception of the predicament in the middle-east. For those who make comments about the Jews taking over a portion of Israel, they are disregarding the fact that the Jews would be attacked anywhere in the middle-east and therefore, they are supporting complete elimination of the Jews. That is not acceptable. I happen to be an African-American. One of you commented that the Jews would not like to have African-Americans transplanted into Israel. They probably would not like it, but they would not do as the terrorist do and try to kill all of the transplanted African-Americans. Therefore, your analogy is senseless. Let's be honest here. No one likes to have cultural changes forced on them, but frankly, the extremest have got to learn that you must draw the line at killing off the people who are different from you. The rest of the world used to kill off people for being different, but the rest of the world has learned to cohabitat. Like it or not, you must learn to live with people who are different from you. America didn't like it either and some Americans still don't like, but they do it anyway. This is the lesson that the Arabs need to learn in order to have peace. You don't get to kill off people who are different from you.
Posted by Joanne Franco @ 08/05/2006 09:10 PM CST
Joanne F, although you are African-American, you view of Arabs is actually racist. They are not killing other people simply because those people are different than them. Although killing is rarely justified and rarely solves any problems, they are killing partly to regain their homeland. Of course, this killing has no spiralled out of control (as it always does) and has deteriorated into mindless revenge killing. Now, they kill even though they know it won't bring their land back to them. But, they figure, if they aren't happy and live in constant fear, at least they can make the Jews miserable too.
Americans need to look deeper into the causes of killings around the world and not judge everyone they see on quick news broadcasts as raving homcidal maniacs.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/05/2006 11:15 PM CST
Alan,it is incredibly naive of you to speak of jews killed with stones. Stones vs armoured soldiers? Were you aware that any child (12 -16 years) caught throwing a stone can be imprisoned for 6 months!
You ask how we cannot feel for a jewish people that have suffered so long. Is it not ironic that these same people can perpetuate such heinous crimes against the Palestinians and not realise the repurcussions of their actions!
Almost 90% of palestinians live below the poverty line and almost 6000 have been killed since the intifada!They have no food, water or electricity (following the Israeli power plant bombings) Go to bed hungry tonight, refrain from using electricity, don't shower or bath or brush your teeth. Dig a hole in your back garden. This will be your toilet for the next week! Can you still tell me that you support Israel?
This is what Israelis have been doing to Palestinians for decades and now almost 1000000 lebanese have been made to suffer the same fate!For every 1 jew killed since the start of the uprising, 20 Palestinians have been killed.According to Israeli Military order 1500, a Palestinian can be detained for up to 18 days without being told the reason for his/her arrest and without being brought befor a judje. Is this justice?
You say that you will do everything to defend the land you stand on. Just don't call it your land because you know as well as I do that it is stolen Land!
Posted by Zakiyya J @ 08/06/2006 10:45 PM CST
Zak must continue to educate themself on the history of the tract of land now called Israel, it is only then that you may come to the understanding that Jews did not steal it...every time you look at the Dome of the Rock, remember it is sitting on a Hebrew Ruin...I am not going to argue about that any more because those that hold one opinion will never be swayed, along with those that hold the other.
Everyone knows that if the Palestinean population of Gaza chose to lead a constructive, productive, prosperous life, they could have it. As a matter of fact, the Israelis and the G8 would promote it and finance it.
The problem is that if they were given this choice, Hamas would have no power, and the Extremists would have no position to take to the people that continue to believe that Israel is there to destroy itself and those around it. Maybe Suha Arafat could even put up a couple of dollars that she and her husband stole out of the mouths of the people that loved them the most.
Posted by Alan @ 08/07/2006 03:53 AM CST
There is only one country in the world in which King Solomon's temple could be rebuilt in today. There is only one country which the messiah could lead his children to. The US is the only country who is with god's children. The US was founded by the masons and upon the masons' beliefs. The masons were founded by Soloman himself.If all of Isreal sold all that they had and came to the US and maintained rights of pilgrimage, where would the world be? Did Einstien seek refuge here and give the US the idea for the bomb to make this country a world leader for a reason? Think, ask yourself these Questions, study the issues as well as the history.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/08/2006 08:45 AM CST
Alan, are you saying that you would be willing to give the Palestinians Gaza and the West Bank if they would be peaceful? Just curious...what percentage of Israelis would agree to give up any of Israel including these two terrories. I know that some would be willing to give and others wouldn't give 1 square meter up, whether it lead to peace or not.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/08/2006 09:53 AM CST
What percentage would sell out to come to america where their children could live in peace and not live in an environment where the daily norm is living with terrorism such as suicide bombings? With the exception of 9-11 we don't know what that's like here. I think that biblically and prophetically the US may be then new chosen land, if not a historically short lived nation. 200 years is a drop in the bucket. The world and us in particular need to start thinking outside the box if we are going to survive. N Korea and how we deal with this situation has an impact on on Isreal. If what I say doesn't make sense I'll elaborate.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/08/2006 10:33 AM CST
Gentlemen, I am sorry if I interuppted your discourse and apologize for being the nut I am. Please continue as I was garnering some valuable wisdom and knowledge through your discussion.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/09/2006 06:14 AM CST
Mark Lavine, on last night's broad cast didn't give one caller "arron" a chance to speak on the basis that he couldn't follow the issues beyond the history of the 19th century as though the issue went further back in history.Tonight sir a caller wanted to discuss issues based on biblical history and was not allowed discourse or consideration. As a republican and conserservitave christian Mark Lavine is a disgrace to all that I believe in. If he doesn't have the intellectual power to debate or consider new ideas then he should make way in the media for someone who can. I apologize to those at this website if this deviates from the issue at hand, but I currently find this medium to be the only place to freely express my beliefs and views. THank you.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/09/2006 07:07 AM CST
According to Alan's logic, the Romans should be able to reoccupy, say Colchester, because their ancestors built temples there, or the Welsh (Britons) should be able to take England back and throw out the Angles & Saxons.
Seriously, anyone who starts using events up to 3000 years ago to justify their behaviour now is living in a world of delusion. That goes for individuals on both sides.
The issue here is that we have two peoples who are both entitled to national rights, and a geographical compromise has to be found to enable that. Anyone who works against that (settlers, "destroy Israel" merchants and people who prefer myth to fact) is part of the problem.
Posted by Chris @ 08/09/2006 01:04 PM CST
For the 2nd time Mr. Knight, did not the Israelis pull out of Gaza? What images were you looking at last August when Israeli soldiers were dragging people who had lived there for 30-40 years from their homes?
I am not arguing whether that was politcally right or wrong, but, what I can confirm to you is that instead of moving to the area, which included shops and schools, and prospering, it was looted and now looks like a ghost town. This furthers the debate on whether or not the goal of this movement is to create a two state solution or create a pile of dead Jews. The arguement over moving out of the "occupied" territory seems to dwindle here.
This is an excerpt from an article printed in Israel from an Arab Israeli named Riad Ali"
"...In one of my reports from Gaza, I talked to a Palestinian boy by the name of Haled. He was 10 years old at the time. He said he wanted to be a teacher. When we switched to the topic of the intifada, Haled said that he had another dream - to be a shahid. I asked him how could he be a teacher and a shahid at the same time. Ten-year-old Haled had no answer. He was only a child. It was then I realized that the Palestinian people have lost their inner compass. A whole generation of children was born and reared in their midst, and all their hopes and aspirations are to die a holy death.
A Palestinian moral-ethical debate on the status of the suicide bomber never took place. The saboteur was and remained a shahid, with all of the positive attributes that the word carries in Islamic terminology. Palestinians who still opposed the bombings did so on tactical grounds; that is to say, if it had furthered their cause, they would have seen no wrong in it.
A similar process happened with Hezbollah. If before 2000 the organization could have had the benefit of the doubt and claim it is fighting Israeli occupation of Lebanon, today it is clear to see that its war is against Jews wherever they may be. You have to be deaf in order not to hear the voice of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as it emerges from Nasrallah's throat, and naive in order to believe that the purpose of the arsenal Nasrallah has accumulated is the release of prisoners and the liberation of the Shaba Farms.
This is the time to address the Arab citizens of Israel, and tell them that the time has come for them to decide where they stand. And they should do so for their own sake, and not for the sake of the Jews. For the sake of the values they want to instill in their children. For the sake of retaining their intellectual dignity. It is clear to all that a Hamas-led Palestinian government and a Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon will not bring democratic societies with a flourishing political and social pluralism. It is clear that in regimes such as those, the rule of law, human rights, the freedom of religion and worship, women's rights, the freedom of creation, the freedom of movement, the freedom of expression and thought - all will be alien, ridiculed concepts, to say the least."
Posted by Alan @ 08/09/2006 06:14 PM CST
LOL @Chris...I say we vote Alan for US president!... I could reclaim North and South Carolina!
Posted by OMFG @ 08/09/2006 08:09 PM CST
This post is for mister Alan, i disagree with your views on the gaza and west bank, where you claim Israel to have pulled out. When you refer to this statement are you honestly blind or just plain ignorant and bias? They had left the gaza strip for less then a week before re-invading as they feared an uprising by Hamas, a group fighting for its right and land. Now what you have created is a clock which reverts back only since the creation of Hamas and Hizbollah, but if u revert it back 100 years you will not be discussing Israel existence. Without Israel, you have no Hizbollah nor a Hamas, therefore the only solution is to abolish Israel, yes JEWISH people may live there, practice there religion, visit the wall of david/jeruslem. By abolishing all " outside " influence such as other religions, cultures and polictians you are faced with seperation between the people.
Now deep down within you, its either you believe Israel blood is more precious then Arab blood, or you are Anti-muslim. Refer to history for an example, where the WEST has always opposed the EAST, therefore the EAST opposing the WEST, now why should the EAST ideolegies and beliefs be false and the WEST idealogies and beliefs be correct? The WEST has no use to this planet, as it only breeds corruption, and whether you may agree or not believe the gun is stronger then the pen. Huge example is the USA, who use military force to eliminate certain tribes, and then claim these tribes to be terrorists? It is the WEST who claim Hizbollah and Hamas to be terrorists, it is the WEST who claim North korea and its allys to be terrorists, and it is YOU who believe this.
'Allow the mind to control you anger and emotions, Do not allow your emotions and anger to control your mind '
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/10/2006 06:23 AM CST
Alan, you keep using one person (the little boy who wants to be a shahid, for example) to paint a grim picture of Palestinians in general. I'll give you an example of a dozen Palestinians, I know, who are good people.
Fifteen years ago, when I was in medical school, I met a Palestinian student at the volleyball courts of my apartment building. After getting to know him for a few weeks, he began telling me about the situation in Israel and the occupied territories. Being American, I had little knowledge of the turmoil there, told from a Palestinian point of view. I just listened.
One day, my car broke down in the parking lot and he came out to help. Soon, all of his Palestinian friends were out there helping me, as well. There were about a dozen guys. Eleven of them didn't even know me, but they took time from their busy schedules (as engineering students) to be there. All twelve weren't needed, but they all stayed until the end to support the group. Their unity and selflessness impressed me.
Anyway, I give this one example to try and counter balance the negative stereotypes of Arab people throughout the media. I am optimistic most of the Israeli and Palestinian people are good and would be willing to compromise. Which brings me back to my question, Alan: would you be willing to give any land so that a Palestinian state could be created? You brought up last August -- yes, I saw the footage of police dragging Israelis who were UNWILLING TO GIVE UP LAND.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/10/2006 12:56 PM CST
I believe the "reinvasion" as you call it occured after 32 Quassams came over the border into Sderot, so your claim of pullout for peace is not true. The Settlers that pulled out of Gaza did not leave rocket launchers and demolished buildings. This occured the week after the 100% absolute pullout. There are facts that back this up, if you cannot see this, I cannot convince you and we must just agree to disagree...as Americans we cannot relate to the situation over there and must rely on the information we choose to recieve...most of that comes in the form of doctored photos from Reuters, the AP, the BBC, and the NY Times.
What Medical School did you attend in Gaza or the West Bank? I met a couple of great Palestinean citizens as well...we had great conversation and all wanted peace...I have seen the cartoons that are presented to Palestinean children in schools there, have you? Most of them present the big nosed Jew as a threat that must be killed...the children there play "kill the Jew" in the streets, with play AK-47s...this can be confirmed by Frontline, a show presented by NPR and PBS, the most liberal of our Media. I spent 6 weeks in Israel (Manara to Newe Shalom) from 5/29 to 7/3 and never once saw Jewish/Israeli children playing "kill the Palestinean." I never once saw a cartoon depicting a big nosed Palestinean as a threat that must be irradicated. Speak all you want about land and Gaza and all the other crap, the fact is that Israel is not going to get up and leave...so either get over it, or we will all go down together.
Of course the Jews were not willing to give up land, this entire conflict is about people not willing to give up land. The Charters of both Hamas and Hezbollah do not call for the just the destruction of Israel, the aim of both groups is to kill all Jews, then Christians (refer to my meeting of the Palestinean Christians I met in En Boqeq in July), and anyone else who does not comply. The fact that they are going after Jews first is because historically we have been the easiest target, just look at all the countries that have been invaded throughout history by the Jews...LOL!
The rationale that the balance in the Middle East is dependent upon 8000 sqare miles is hysterically illogical and everyone knows it. This has everything to do with a broader plan, part of which was debunked yesterday in Britain with the capture of 25 "faithfuls" planning to blow up 10 planes full of innocent people. The scrap in Israel is supposed to keep the world focused there so that the clown in Iran and his lackies can keep the world hostage until they are converted, otherwise they would offer a peaceful solution that everyone could live with, the fact that other Arab nations outside of Syria and Iran refuse to get involved proves that the "Palestineans" are just a pawn in a bigger game...there is plenty of dollars and technology there to help everyone, the solution is in front of their faces, Their Arab neighbors could care less.
So mock me if you would like, but, if Iran continues to choose this path even their friends in China and Russia will not be able to save them.
Posted by Alan @ 08/10/2006 08:35 PM CST
I've got an idea: Israelis switch places with the Palestinians. Be occupied and spend 2 hours a day at military check points, degraded and humiliated. If you have a smile on your face, go back to the end of the line for being too happy. Then, check if your kids start playing KILL THE PALESTINIANS.
Posted by SKnight @ 08/11/2006 12:41 AM CST
( An earlier post, which nobody responded )
"Chris Rohloff", its either your ignorance or absolute stupidity to claim Israel(jews) did not lay a hand on palestinian men who didnt touch them. Another by-product of the israeli establishment was the secret agents the " Mossad " created to take out arab politicians, leaders and former Nazi war criminals. An infamous operation, the 1960 kidnapping of Nazi Adolf Eichmann in ARGENTINA, as you claim Hizbollah terrorists for its attacks overseas, this is the same thing yet israels actions are not spoken about. Also 1972 munich games, Mossad claims responsibility for killing the black september group. Israel established in 1948 with a population of 150 000 jewish, and 900 000 arabs, by 1949 over 55 refugee camps holding 750 000 arabs run by israeli soldiers. Now if this is acceptable to society 50+ years ago, then i think you are ignorant.
1939- White paper, allowing 75 000 jews into israel a year for 10 years, then splitting the nation into undivided territory, the arabs accept, the jews retaliate with hundreds of murderds occuring across israel. Not to say the arabs did not fight back, but the brutalness of these killing where israel(jews) would avenge one death of its people, by sleying 150 arabs. Although they did not kill 150 arabs for every 1 jew, they would sley 10's of arabs.
18th may 1967- Nasser, egyptian president requests the UN remove its troops from egyptian territory, UN accept.
5th june 1967- Israel fearing an uprising, destroy not only egyptian, but jordanian and SYRIAN air fields gaining air supremacy in the region.
June 1967- As expected arab nations due to Israel air strikes for no reason, declare the four " NO's " :
No recognition of Israel
Almost 40 years later, you expect everything to be forgiven and forgotten?
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/11/2006 02:53 AM CST
No, I expect that we will destroy each other. This he started it, she started it is never going to end...instead the entire region will be destroyed. Enough already.
Posted by Alan @ 08/11/2006 04:36 PM CST
Yes, obviously i dont agree on the he/she started it kind of thing. I think the best view is, to go back to the beginning of the drama in 1948, assess these policies that were offered, and at least offer palestine 50% of its land back rather then two thing strips of land. The solution doesnt lay in the ak-47 nor the nuclear/chemical bombs, but it lay in the hands of " israeli " parliament, because as you may agree or disagree are corrupt. " Israel " and Hizbollah share the same but opposite view in their own sense, with both their missions being to wipe one another out true or fale?
For those who say true, then why should Hizbollah be the only army proposed for a disarment? If both their missions are to take each other out, they either both exist or none exist. That is my honest view on things, double standards held by the USA over the last 100 years are absolutely stupid, and the fact half the world agrees shows how the power of images and the media control their minds.
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/12/2006 07:01 AM CST
Forget the small minuscule painfully stupid and small details here people. Yes the nut is back in town. Isreal is our ally. There are people in the arab world who would love to cut your head off with a dull pocket knife while you beg for your life. They would then post the video tape on the web, of the air gurgling out of your throat as the blood gushes from your jugular viens while you writhe in pain and twitch until you die. The video, would then be on the web for your family and loved ones to view. As well as the rest of the world. What, you haven't seen them? Just look on the web. These same people aren't above propably doing this to you, in front of your own children, wife or extended family. These same people have links to terrorist groups like Hezzbollah. They will raise their children to be the same way. So I say thank you to ISREAL for killing every MAN(coward) woman(who would sACRIFICE her children) and child(who would want to kill my children someday). I hope that from the deepest and darkest bottom of my heart that they all die a very slow and painful death. Maybe my children will be safe some day. IT'S YOUR CHILDREN OR THEIRS. THE WHOLE SOCIETY BEARS RESPONSIBILY FOR THEIR LEADERS ACTIONS AND BEARS THE RETRIBUTION. A SOCIETY THAT REFUSES TO LEARN FROM HISTORY IS DUE TO REPEAT THE SAME STUPID MISTAKES. What does it take to wake up all of you stupid bleeding heart !@$#$%^&'s. In the 40's the Japanese didn't have to come here and start beheading people like they did our pow'S. The nazis didn't start concentration camps here. If you don't believe that happened I can tell you my grandfather liberated dachaw. He was catholic. He used to get drunk and cry about what he saw and tell me all about it. Where's the conspiracy there? I've been to the gulf. I know. If you've never been in a combat zone and seen the wild dogs eating your fellow humans don't give me your weak ass views of the world when you've not been farther in the world than barbados or cancun. All the people who said I was going to die for oil. Where are they? I don't see them living in the woods swearing off heat or AC? I was willing to give my life then to preserve their way of life. Sucking up the heat and ac in some college dorm or comfortable classroom. Put your money where your weak palid body is. I lived with out more than you can imagine for that period. Where was your sacrifice other than your bitching about some stupid conspiracy about the establishment blah blah blah. It's going to take a nuclear bomb in some place like New York, Lost Angales, Loston; Mass. or DC before everyone wakes up, stops complaining and worrying about civilian combatants(50% of whom are guerrilla fighters who don't give a hoot period.... and didn't sign the Geneva convention. At least Hitler did.) I for one don't want to see fallout in my near future or my childrens. If you have no kids, you haven't a clue. My heart aches when I see a child crying on the news, but I love mine a whole lot more.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/12/2006 08:12 AM CST
To " Joe Mclamb ", I honestly have never met such a ignorant person in my entire life. Now when the USA and its allys fight a war with guns, does it mean the enemy has to use guns as well? Why is the knife a worse death? Death is death, and to stereotype this across the Muslim/Arab world is the most ignorant post on this site I have read. IRA and Great Britain were once at war, two CHRISTIAN sides and yet they would use the same method to wipe one another out, do you see me stereotyping this across the christian world? When the Americans and the French entered India and North America to " exterminate " of the black, did you see me stereotyping this across the world? When the Pope prays for world peace, and the leader of Islam Khomeini pray for peace, and were the best of friends I did not see the representative of the CHRISTIAN people saying this about muslims. It is the ignorant and media-soaked minds that believe such things, but when you hear of the American soldiers raping a 14 yr old girl in Iraq and killing her family infront of her, this is not a great sin to you I suppose? When the Israeli soldiers would rape women in their homes infront of their LOVED ones, not over the net nor tv, but infront of their EYES! You did not see me stereotyping the jews, if you bothered reading my early posts you would have noticed, but NO you are just another baboom from the group of idiots who sit down and follow the BIAS news sources casting over your screen and mind all day long.
Now you have a think about this and get back to me, Western laws are not based on beheading, or death penaltys, yet they are less harsh in their own sense, but the Islamic laws which have OLD laws such as beheading and chopping of hands of feet as their punishment etc, that does not mean Western Laws are right. But on the other hand, I AM MUSLIM and I and the rest of the muslim world agree, that these STUPID muslims, destroying the name of Islam by beheading people and torturing are SINNERS, not good in the eyes of Allah. Torture is haram in our religion, and you may research on the year 2000 Israeli soldiers released, and they will tell you " Hizbollah treated us like angels, Fed three times a day, Showered once and were never tortured ". Out of their own minds and mouths this comes, not from anybody else. Now before you stereotype anyone, think before you saying anything. You never know, now if u claim all muslims to do these kinds of actions, then you are paving the paths for these idiots to more of these horrendous attacks.
Research on Imam Hussein ( A.S ) our great Imam who was martyred by tyrant muslims, and was BEHEADED in IRAQ.
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/13/2006 05:11 AM CST
Disclosed, I use my name as I am disclosed and don't feel afraid to disclose who I am or my veiws because I have done nothing wrong but speak my mind which is a freedom guaranteed in my or our country without fear of persecution. I say our country in the instance that you might would want to be a peaceful member of my community, work for a living and raise a family in the peaceful manner that all should live by. You have that same guarantee of freedom here as well as I do. I would proctect that right myself personally if you were my next door neighbor. Yes I am ignorant, a wise man knows his limitations. I base my opinion on what I gather from the liberal US press, the far right US press, the US soldiers I talk to who have been on the ground in the middle east, and my experience on the ground in the middle east. Then I form my opinion. That information may be limited and I make no excuses for that. There may have been a soldier from the US who raped a 14yr old girl, but I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes and in my country a person is innocent until proven guilty. Americans don't delight in that sort of thing for the most part so we don't video tape it and send it to the world press for everyone to see and for us to use as a political statement. That occurance will be investigated, hopefully proven to be true or false and justice administered. If I knew for a fact that a US soldier did that to a family for no cause other than evil I would volunteer to shoot him in the head myself, for he has tarnished myself and my country as a whole.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/13/2006 08:07 AM CST
Undisclosed, is the muslim world as a whole one society? Or is a society in Islam one cruel dictatorship such as the Sudan, which took all nonmuslims that could be rounded up ,(black, white, and arab) and sold them into slavery to other nations like libiya. The genocide goes on there today. Is this a nation founded on Muslim beliefs? Are you of the muslim society of one nation, or the muslim society in the world as a whole? Which group would you stereotype yourself with? I made pretty broad statements, but didn't say "The Muslim world as a whole" Where do you stand? Did hezbollah treat someone humanley? All I remember are the 212 or 312 marines they blew up in Lebonon, after they blew up our embassy there. The lebonese people as a whole lived beside hezbollah and made a bad political choice letting them exist in their "society". Christians, Jews and arabs alike. Now, there is retribution to be paid by that society for not taking RESPONSIBILTY for what goes on in their own back yard. Are you a Muslim in america or an american who is a practising Muslim? We're not asking you to put one before the other, that would be offensive, sinful and politically incorrect. It is you who knows what you are.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/13/2006 08:53 AM CST
Undisclosed, I am ignorant, a baboom, and an infidel. I am also a christian, an american, and a soldier. My government makes choices for my brothers and myself in arms as to where we have to go and what we do. We make the best choices we can under the circumstances. Three days without sleep sometimes. Where we are at right now is a place where Muslims from Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Afganistan plant ieds to kill us and other native people who won't do what they want. Its easy to make a mistake when you're expecting someone to kill you any moment of every day. A person loses compassion and kindness living under these circumstances every day. There are some bad people in america who get into the military who would do bad things no matter where they are. There's no excuse, but people are innocent until proven guilty.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/13/2006 09:16 AM CST
Death is death by whatever means? I don't want to even go into details about such a statement. You sound like you don't even care if someone were to skin you alive or humanely give you an overdose of pain killers. Law? Take a mass murderer or pedophile and cut his head off in one swift stroke with a longbladed sword. To take an innocent man who was not even accused of no crime and SAW, I SAID "SAW", I SAID "SAW" his head off with a six inch knife. I believe you are comparing camels to goats my friend. I read your posting three times before replying, did you get past my first sentence?
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/13/2006 09:37 AM CST
You have honestly done nothing but humiliate yourself now, because I told you not to stereotype and yet you are giving me all these examples. I bet you anything in AMERICA when you are convicted for a crime, they dont say oh your Muslim, your guilty because another Muslim done that too. See you claim you do what your country tells you to do, and go where it tells you to go, so you are admitting that YOU went to the war, the war didnt go to YOU. Thanks for making yourself look stupid, and since you read the news, why did the USA claim their invasion or IRAQ a failure? You are just a soldier sent to war, and obviously you will hate the enemy, but you did not know that Hizbollah soldiers are not aloud to kill someone if they hate them personally. See you are just a nobody making up your opinion trying to win the minds of everyone who reads them, so its better for you to **** back and say nothing, because you are NOTHING but a stereo-typical BABOON whose mind is run by the media as I mentioned earlier.
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/13/2006 03:31 PM CST
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU JOHN AND OMY
Though I feel pity for the troubles of the Jewish people throughout history, it is not us christians or muslims (im muslim) to blame for these conflicts. I've been studying this situation for a year and have learned that EVERY pro-zionist I meet uses history to make his whole debate. Did you know that the Jews killed Jesus Christ therefore starting the troubles between christians and jews (such as the crusades) Did you also know that when Mahummad began preaching he had a very small group of follower and YET the Jews funded the war to destroy him because they thought he would lead to revolution.
It is not the fault of christianity, judaism, islam, the arab world/media, israel that millions hate jews. It is because whenever another religon threatened judaism they sought to destroy it. NOW their enemies have grown to over 2 billion christians and 1.5 billion muslims. You say that jews have been discriminated against since the beginning of time, it is because YOU started the conflict. I don't care about the persons religion (fun fact: did you know that whenever an anti-zionist leader insults israel he doesnt use the word for judaism or jew he says the "zionist regime" which verified by wikipedia means pro-settling israel with jews) Do you think that if any other religion had taken palestine then the arabs would have not reacted of course they would have reacted. As for palestine not becoming a state till after israel bull then your wrong. Palestine was included with jordan when they ruled the israeli lands, they became independant for the jordanians but still ruled israel when it was given to the jews
part 2 is next
Posted by Sam @ 08/14/2006 02:33 AM CST
OK back lol
As i was saying, when britain and the u.n gave the land of palestine to israel, they did it not on political motives, they did it because of religion. I may be a very religious teen but i do not think that religion should be brought into politics. Some people say that the jewish league was buying areas of palestine before it existed, that doesnt mean that the country should be given to the jewish league. Many major american corporations are jewish owned, does that mean the america should be turned into a jewish state? NO IT DOES IT.
Current conflict- Israelis tried to justify this war to recover 2 soldiers that were captured. Whether you know it or western media has brainwashed you to think that two jews are worth more then 1000 arabs or in this case lebanese. I personally do not agree with hezbollah but i disagree more with israel more. Hezbollah may have started the conflict but israel escalated the conflict a thousand fold. So while those 2 soldiers are carried in secret across lebanon syria and iran thousands are dying. On the news now a days no one is even talking about those soldiers only passing the subject (i truly pity the family of those soldiers but did you know that both families tried to stop the israeli government from reacting because they said I quote "I do not want my sons kidnapping to be a reason for another war israel does not need more bloodshed." ironic that the people theyre trying to recover said no and yet they went on ahead.
Posted by Sam @ 08/14/2006 02:48 AM CST
Disclosed... god bless you. If my theory is correct then your a shia because of the comment about Imam Hussein A.S. Anyways your arguments are good and reasonable.
Thanks for the history info. I never knew that.
Posted by Sam @ 08/14/2006 02:53 AM CST
psst...Sam...the Romans killed Jesus Christ...even the New Testament states it...but that must have been political too? Your history lessons seem pretty one sided to me...
Posted by Alan @ 08/14/2006 06:04 AM CST
lol sorry alan but i was raised in a biased society as you were. But actually the Romans ALLOWED the crucifixion of christ. The jewish people (mob mentality) more likely the wealthy jews and religious figures wanted to kill christ but needed the permission of the romans. As i recall pontius pilate asked the jews if they would rather kill jesus or barnabas (i think that was the name) who had committed several murders. The jews wanted to kill jesus instead. Pilate tried to defend jesus for a while but had to give in.
Posted by sam @ 08/14/2006 09:04 AM CST
This has nothing to do with a bias society, the New Testament itself holds the Romans responsible, I would think that that should be the referenced history book on this one...I will never claim to be a professor of religion so I will not dispute it, you however seem to be willing to accept anything that would hold the Jews responsible...The fact you used the words "more likely" without noting a source is proof that your post is opinion, not fact based.
Religion has killed more people in history than any other cause, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or Judaism. No one's hands are clean, there is no larger Hipocrisy...study that one. We can all sit here and argue how one killed more or someone didn't kill enough, in the end it is all about idealistic supremacy and no one gets out alive...go ahead and try to convince the world that Islam has never killed in vain, Jews will do the same, while the Christians cry with guilt...in the end no peace...what a waste.
Posted by Alan @ 08/14/2006 11:01 PM CST
lol with that i cant argue, thats a fact. No nation will or ever will be perfect.
Posted by sam @ 08/15/2006 03:23 AM CST
As a christian I agree with Sam. The Jews wanted Jesus dead because because he was a trouble maker and desturbed the "Quid pro Quo" of the day with the money changers at the steps of the temple. He threatened the power of the preists in the temple. It was or were the same priests who demanded Mr pilot to put the trouble maker to death. Sam I read your statement about the early history of Mohammed and the jews and there may be alot there I don't know. I confess my ignorance. One source I've read however, I don't know where, says that Mohammed lived peacably with the jews until he was attacked by someone or some other nation. The jewish community amoung his people split, and some fought against him and some at his side. Alan you're right too. More people have died because of religion in the history af the earth. Sam Did Mohhamed come out against the jews at that point in history, or was it later in his teachings of the Koran and why?
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/15/2006 05:21 AM CST
Mr disclosed, I am sorry about the death or Imam Hussein. I suspected he was and you too are a southern Iraqi Shia. Who was it who put him to death? Sadam? All the more reason he should have been removed from power Repression of religion and free speech. If you are southern Iraqi Shia, maybe you can tell me if something is true or not? When I was south of Basrah in 92', was it true that the Shia in Basrah attacked the republican guard units of Saddam as they were retreating? What were the reprisals agianst the Shia for their actions. My gmovmtspported a uprising against Saddam and did not deliver many promises of arms and support for the people, which I only found out later. There are many things which do trouble me about my country, but it is always MY country. I swore an oath to defend it. I see the Shia people, except the "Society of Iran" as an allie to me, except those who would attack us,US. I often feel sorrow not hatred for a defeated enemy. Most of the Iraqi's that I saw didn't want to be there, were left to die starving in the desert by their government. Starving, they most likley took all of the food that the locals had, and I saw many children begging for food. I almost cried for them. We fed them what we could. I am sorry our presidents father deserted the Iraqi people when they needed our help. The worst way to gain an allie is to attack those who could help or to desert thsoe who need help.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/15/2006 06:13 AM CST
Question: Should the Allies have bombed Germany and Europe to defeat the Nazis or agreed to a ceasefire while the Nazis sent Doodlebugs into England? How many millions were slaughtered on both sides to win the freedom of the West? When an enemy attacks you with the aim of destroying your society you are forced into a competition to try and do more damage to your opponent than they can infict upon you until eventually one side is forced into an unwilling
Posted by Zippy @ 08/15/2006 06:15 AM CST
Mr Disclosed I will always be your ignorant baboon.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/15/2006 06:19 AM CST
Slow down there Zippy, I'm an ignorant boboon, just one idears at a time. There is us peoples out heres who don't thinkseses that fasteses.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/15/2006 07:31 AM CST
I am deeply sorry, I have not been able to post soon enough, as I have been busy with my lectures, lessons and my own research.
To " Joe Mclamb ", Imam Hussain ( A.S ) was martyd hundreds of years ago, not by Saddam Hussain nor his regime. Can you honestly go out of your busy schedule as it may seem, to research on Islam, and the belief of the " Shii'te ". Purchase a book on Imam Al Mehdi, rather then a car magazine and sit down and have a close read, so you can expand on your knowledge, rather then listen to newsreporters or Osama bin Laden revealing their " plots ".
I would deepy admire this, thank you for going out of your schedule to do so. Now I must depart as I must atttend a lecture of one of my dear brothers, Wa Alaykum Al Salam, May Allah bless you.
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/16/2006 05:07 AM CST
YEAH DISCLOSED YOU ROCK!
Thanks and have a happy and fun summer.
Posted by Sam @ 08/17/2006 02:52 AM CST
Zippy you could truly learn from Jon Snow and George Gallaway, they're true journalists (cept Gallaway is a British Parliament Member) anyways just search them up and look at their interviews. That's journalism.
Posted by Sam @ 08/17/2006 02:56 AM CST
Mr disclosed, I apologize for not doing "timely" research. As I am a small disadvantaged business owner and am many times on the web in the many wee hours of the night, i don't often have time to do research. I also apologize for my temper which is volitile and a danger to myself most of the time, moreso than anyone else. I would like a vague answer to my questions in regards to Basrah, unless you don't have them. Sam I hope you have the time I don't to research that I don't. Thank you gentlemen for allowing me a chance to air my frustrations and a chance to learn from you. I know I can be a psycopathic christian one moment and a level headed one in search of wisdom the next. NOone has anything to fear from me personally until they harm my family. I imagine many Muslim families have no recourse legally and i have no idea what that is like, but I will not ever betray who I am or where I come from. I swore a oath and it binds me until death.
Posted by Joe Mclamb @ 08/17/2006 06:47 AM CST
I understand your position, if you have anything you may ask me, please do so. In the mean time, im interested in any other forums you chaps might log into, as I would like to engage into a more deep conversation with some people. Thanks, yours dearly.
Posted by Disclosed @ 08/17/2006 09:18 AM CST
This whole board is just plain useless really, I mean two equally retarded viewpoints butting heads over imaginary gods and "history" that is mostly written by rulers to control their people through "religion" I am seeing this disease spreading in my country as well, with Muslims trying to have their own courts to mete out their perverse version of justice, I say that both sides are useless as a whole, religious garbage that impedes the progress of humanity because their minds are too weak to grapple with the thought that you get ONE life, then your gone. This is the basis of ALL religions plain and simple. Humans fear death, so they create these fantasies to make them feel better about it, I watched my father die gasping for breath of cancer, it took 4 days for the gasping to stop, and I can tell you with certainty that if there was a god, I would never consider following his plans, because from what I gather all your gods are either vain, vengeful or just plain cruel, all BAD human traits... and I am to choose one of these to follow? I choose to follow none as all they have ever cause is misery, GET OVER YOUR FEAR OF DEATH! ORGANISED RELIGIONS ARE THE TRUE EVIL OF THE WORLD!
Posted by Michael Langford @ 08/24/2006 09:07 PM CST
YOU ARE CORRECT. RELIGION IS THE EVIL. 99% OF THE TIME, BUT DO REMEMBER THAT MOTHER TERESA WITNESSED WHAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED WITH YOUR FATHER MANY TIMES WORSE AND SHE STILL KNEW THAT GOD EXISTS. JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU DAD MIGHT HAVE TAKEN 4 DAYS OF SUFFERING TO DIE, BUT IF GOD DOES EXIST, THEN YOUR DAD IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL.
I AM NOT RELIGIOUS, BUT NEITHER AM I AN ATHIEST. YOU CANNOT CLAIM GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE YOUR DADDY SUFFERED. WELCOME TO LIFE EVERYONE SUFFERS. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. AND IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE DOES EXIST. IT IS A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
Posted by JOHN @ 08/25/2006 06:15 PM CST
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