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Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah: The vicious circle of righteousness, force, and loss of compassion07/20/2006 In the film "Paradise Now," one of the Palestinian potential suicide bombers tells his girl friend: "The Israelis took ownership on both the righteousness of being victims and on the total powerfulness. They have left us no choice but to do the same." I wish to add to this important sentence, that when both sides take ownership on both righteousness and powerfulness, there is no space left for compassion. When rockets fall on the northern and southern parts of Israel, the Israeli Jewish people shrink back into their primary sense of victimhood: We are a small people, threatened by many external forces that should be confronted with determinism and powerfulness. This primary sense of victimhood is based on righteousness of the weak ('who tries to kill you, kill him first'). We have experienced this sense of victimhood many times during the last decades so that it has become like a second nature to us. It gives us the feeling of togetherness and authorizes our government in our name to shoot at the enemy, including their civilians, as they shoot at ours; as in war, like in war. We are well trained in this scenario and possibly prefer it to all other possible scenarios of this region. The consciousness of many of our people rotates around this righteousness of the victim. It is not a coincidence that we are much less aware of our power and strength and its negative effects on the others who suffer from our powerful acts. The victims have an advantage over the perpetrators: They do not have to take responsibility for their own actions, as these are only a reaction to the evil acts of the others. Therefore, we should perhaps be reminded in these harsh days of bombs and fighting in Gaza and Lebanon, that it was our power-oriented behavior in Lebanon and in the occupied territories that contributed to the creation of both Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Hamas in the territories. These militant organizations were created partially as a reaction to our excessive use of power. After these organizations grew to a magnitude which threatens us, we complain and again see ourselves as their victims, and them as terrorists with whom one cannot talk… Though we tend to put all our 'enemies' in one basket, I want to draw a clear line differentiating between the Hezbollah and the Hamas. The first is a terrorist organization which acts violently against Israel in spite of international law, thereby also endangering the safety of the Lebanese government and people. It is motivated by the regional interests of Iran and Syria and should be taken care of by the international community, as it endangers not only Israel but also the region as a whole. The Israeli government is right in its efforts to weaken this organization and the only open question is if the current military actions in Lebanon will actually contribute to achieving this goal or will actually strengthen the Hezbollah, at least in the eyes of its Arab neighbors. Unlike the Hezbollah, the Hamas government was elected through democratic elections by the Palestinian people, mainly as a reaction of the latter to the previous corrupt government and less because of its policy toward Israel. In the last months we have seen a bitter struggle within the Hamas, pressured by the Europeans, Abu Mazen, and delegates from Egypt and Jordan, between the moderate part of the Hamas, led by Ismail Haniya, and the military part, led by Haled Mashal. The prisoners’ document that was signed between Marwan Barghouti and the leaders of the Hamas in the Israeli prison could be a basis for a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinian authority. Now we are the ones who refuse to conduct such a dialogue, less out of political wisdom, but out of feeling of superiority and power-orientation. It was our military reaction to the abduction of Gilad Shalit that actually gave strength to the extremists of the Hamas in their struggle with the moderate part, instead of doing the opposite. Where is the logic for this deed? With the Palestinian people we have to reach a painful but necessary compromise of dividing this land. A compromise can be achieved only through dialogue. We are the only people in the world, ridden by an intractable conflict with another people, who refuse to understand that a compromise will be reached only through an open dialogue. Almost every child in Israel and Palestine knows the nature of this compromise by heart: Return to the borders of 1967, with slight changes, two states with their capitals in Jerusalem, and a systematic step-wise solution to the resettlement of the Palestinian refugees, including Israel’s recognition of its share in the creation of that difficult issue. That was agreed upon in Taba in 2001, was suggested by the Arab League in 2002, and was also the basis for the prisoners’ document. By reaching a compromise, the Palestinians will be pulled out from the threatening balance of power in our region, as they are not an essential part of that balance but rather suffer from it just like us. It could happen that when the military operation will be over, we will be faced with a Palestinian government that will be ready to enter negotiations with the Israeli government based on this compromise. The question then will be: Is there an Israeli government capable of entering such a process of negotiations? Right now it does not seem that the Israeli government has a mandate to carry out such a compromise with the Palestinian people. By moving out of Lebanon and Gaza, Israel tried to retrieve an internal consensus of righteousness, which was hampered by the long occupation of lands which were not ours in the first place. The fact that Israel returned every inch of these territories, according to international law, made us again rightful, in our own eyes and those of the international community. We loved that feeling so much that we wanted to apply it also to the West Bank, cutting ourselves off behind an 8 meter wall. This was the mandate the Kadima party got from the Israeli people in the last elections. The Prime Minister even proclaimed that when this will be accomplished Israel will be a state in which it will be “fun to live,” perhaps aiming at the full accomplishment of internal consensus and feeling of righteousness, by giving up most of the occupied territories. However, in this whole 'clean' process someone forgot that there is also another people, with their own needs, pains and feeling of righteousness and powerfulness. In this whole process we played chess with ourselves, without letting the other party have a say, as "there is no one to talk to," and they anyway "understand only force." In that sense the Kassam missiles on Sderot and Ashkelon were unpleasant reminders of another people who suffer and needs a way to express itself. Whoever does not want to talk with them will get missiles and abducted soldiers. Therefore, my recommendation to the Israeli government, which promised with its inception a new public agenda to a public tired of empty promises, is: Weaken the Hezbollah as much as you can, including by military means if it can serve that goal, but give up the new plan for disengagement that throws sand in our eyes and start talking to the Palestinians on the painful compromise between them and us, a solution both our people need so badly. Remember, a compromise is not based on either absolute righteousness or absolute powerfulness. It is based on compassion: Compassion for the people who suffer, who were killed, compassion for their family members, compassion for a public that is tired of just and successful wars.
Dan Bar-On, Ben Gurion University of the Negev Dan Bar-On is a Professor of Psychology at the Department of Behavioral Sciences at Ben-Gurion University. He is also the co-director of PRIME (Peace Research Institute in the Middle East) near Beit Jala in the West Bank. He is the author of several books, among others - Legacy of Silence: Encounters with Children of the Third Reich (Harvard University Press, 1989), Fear and Hope: Three Generations of Holocaust Survivors' Families (Harvard University Press, 1998) and The Indescribable and the Undiscussable (Central European University Press, 1999). In 1996 he was awarded the David Lopatie Chair for Post-Holocaust Psychological Studies. In 2001 he received the BundesverdienstKreutz First Class, from German President Dr. Johannes Rau. In 2003 he received the Eric Maria Remarque Peace Prize in Osnabruck, Germany.
Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000491.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission. |
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Replies: 133 comments
It is a recognized precept that before a person can proceed from the basic needs to the higher needs the most basic needs MUST be obtained. Maslows Hierarchy of needs is the most accepted model. Posted by cobaltblu @ 07/20/2006 11:47 PM CST Subtract Israel from modern history and voila!: We now have a world with no Hamas, no Hezbollah, no war in Iraq, and little or no conflict between U.S. and Syria and Iran. Very likely there is little fuel for the hatred of Osama bin Laden and, hence, there is no 9/11. Millions of people can come out of their graves and hiding places into a much more peaceful world. Given this alternative reality, one can only conclude that the British Mandate that fulfilled the Zionist's imagined covenant with God to return to the Promised Land of ancient history was the greatest blunder in Human history-- and which acually was the equivalent of sticking a man's head into a hornet's nest. And it was done in the most brutal and uncaring way imaginable. Modern Israel, no matter how well intentioned, may be the source of World War III. Posted by David Fredericks @ 07/21/2006 01:22 AM CST David Fredericks sounds like an Aryan Nations supporter to me. Posted by left, but not antizionist @ 07/21/2006 11:03 AM CST
Hey let's follow David Frederick's alternate reality even further back. Posted by David - USA @ 07/21/2006 01:29 PM CST
David Fredrick's postulation is flawed in one critical element, organisations such as Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda are not the product of Zionism, but the failure of Muslim society to keep pace with the West and the Far East, socially or economically. Whilst a few centuries ago Islam commanded a vast proportion of the world's surface, it has been in steady decline. Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/21/2006 04:09 PM CST The problem with the middle east is an underlying reason. The problem is IGNORANCE AND DISHONESTY. Let me start with the Jews, God does not give land to anyone period. God does not favor anyone period. The Jews are still waiting for there Messiah for 6000 years. Keep waiting. The moslims claim the middle east is their land because a military commander named Mohammed said that he had communication with God through angel Gabriel in a cave. Lie, Lie, Lie. If you as a human do not have common sense and logic then you are not even close to communicating with God, if he does exist. God created the human brain to THINK,and not to just accept things blindly. For both moslims and jews in the world, make sure God is REALLY SPEAKING TO YOU BEFORE YOU ACT because once you die and meet God, you will realize that you never talked to Him or recieved messages from him. God does not play favors, I don't need God to tell me that. It is common sense. If God favors anyone over someone else, then he is not a good God. The Jews must understand that God loves the leader of Hizbullah as much as their president. God loves a prostitute and a serial killer as much as anyone else. So think really deeply before you act because even if Isreal or the Muslims win the war and take over the Middle East, you will ALL DIE one day, and then you will be naked with no land, money, or military in the face of God. You want to lie to yourself and just pretend that you are having faith in the Torah, Koran or the Bible, keep it up. Faith is not just ACCEPTING BLINDLY. Use your brains. Every single true prophet in history claimed direct communication with God, through miracles. And if they were lying, then there is no God, period. Next time you pray, sit there and ask yourself if the invisible air around you is really talking back. When you pray and say something to God, pause and wait for him to REALLY SPEAK BACK TO YOU. Physical communication, not some bullcrap communication through feelings, emotions, or the heart. Wait for REAL communication, just as he did with the prophets. So before you say to yourself that you are free of sin, and that God favors you, make sure that you are really communicating with God, and not just filling your head with lies. Question EVERYTHING. Question, the bible, the koran, evolution, torah. EVERYTHING. Do not just accept something blindly, that is not faith, it is STUPIDITY. Posted by John @ 07/21/2006 05:32 PM CST A world without war is not possible. Reason: Some have, some don't. Those who don't, want what those who have, have. Following this? Ok, If everyone had the same, there would be no drive to move, no motivation ...for trade, international communication etc, there would be no interaction between societies period. Without motivation there is no sense of competition. There would be no innovation. War and social struggle is what makes the world change. The rise and fall of nations is what lends us knowledge. We strive to be better than the rest, and in doing so we find ourselves capable of inventing all kinds of crazy $#*&. Sometimes this is a good thing (new medicines and medical procedures)and sometimes not so good (Nuclear weapons). It is a cycle of life we cannot and should not escape. Though it is terrifying it is necessarry. The basic rule to life is, "Survival of the fittest". It doesn't really matter who is right and who is wrong, Israel, Hez or Hamas. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/21/2006 07:52 PM CST In order to have peace, once has to desire it and wanted it at all cost. Ever since I was born, I have always heard of problems in the Middle East. I am disturbed when some call it a Holy War. God does not wish for anyone to have wars and major conflicts. We only have a few years on this earth, it would be so easy to have peace, but again, one has to sacrifice and humble themselves to obtain it. I don't think most humans can understand humility when they are driven by power and righteousness. I truly believe there will never be peace in the Middle East till all sides begin the process of healing with compassion, humility and empathy. As long as people have anger in their hearts, no peace will ever be achieved. Nothing will ever be achieved with any war, it only results in more casualties, broken families, animosity and long term anger. Peace to all. Posted by Anna-Maria Tiveron @ 07/22/2006 06:53 AM CST While I am waiting to be evacuated out of Lebanon, I can not help but think that this world is totally mad. I would like to say that sites such as this, have no meaning and are just a waste of energy. These past 11 days have given a new term to this world that we live in, the term that all should use is "A SATANIC WORLD". Those brave people that write these big speaches and side with the Israeli barbaric and inhumane and immoral action should be gathered up and placed for 5 minutes only in the south of Lebanon or in the north of Israel. Then I would like to see what brave words they write. This world is hell. The situation in Lebanon is hell on earth. If Israel and the US don't stop this action then no doubt the north of Israel will also become hell on earth. So enjoy writting your brave comments and we will keep enjoying the American missles and bombs that target inocent civillians fleeing. We will dance to the vibrations of the homes from the bombs. You enjoy telling yourselves that the Israeli action is justified because 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by people whose land is still being occupied by Israel. People whose land is violated every single day by the Israeli war machine. Fool yourself into believing that the mass murder of the innocent and mass distruction of homes, roads, bridges, factories, power plants and buses as well as the destruction convoys of humanitarian relief will bring Israel peace. Posted by Mike Jebara @ 07/22/2006 05:40 PM CST One thing I forgot to mention. I would like to say to those 10 or so Israeli's who were calling for the war to stop, I would like to commend them on the brave stand they took. I would like to tell them that they are in danger just as much all the Lebanese and Palestinians. They should try to flee before the rest of Israel remembers them and eleminate them as traitors of the state of Israel. Posted by Mike Jebara @ 07/22/2006 05:45 PM CST The posting by David Fredericks was intellectually lazy. Even the most casual review of Islam shows that after it is done killing all the Jews, the "Kuffar" (non-believers, i.e. the rest of us) are next. Take away the State of Israel and all that would happen is WWIII would have been moved up a few decades. Remember: the Jews are the canaries in the coalmines: when evil is afoot, the Jews are always the first to be targeted. We, that are left, are next in line. "There is no God called Allah and Mohammed was a pedophile" ~~Osama bin Laden, 9/11/01 Posted by Voice in the Wilderness @ 07/23/2006 02:29 AM CST I suspect that whether it was Isrealis living in Isreal or another people altogether, that the ownership of righteousness and of victimisation would be preciseley what they would take also, and much else of what Isreal does from the position it is in is much as could be expected of anyone. Now that you have itemised the faults in the participants so clearly and written of those acts that have exacerbated the situation with the brilliance of your 100% hindsight, hows about now providing a solution that takes into consideration the existing nature and situation of those participating - alternativley your plans for changing both sides into ones receptive one for good would also be of interest. Tough isn't it?? I shouldn't be so hard, how many dozens of experts have you seen on the tele speak so eloquently of what has happened in the past only to um and arrgh their way through any answer to do with matters contemparary and future? All of them I should think. Human nature tends to be much the same wherever you are.I am not clever enough to work out if that information changes the nature of your arguements but you are so you work it out. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/23/2006 05:10 PM CST If you are not clever enough to work it out, then don't talk. I can work it out. Simple, is God really talking to Hizbollah. No. Is God telling Isreal to destroy Lebanon. No. Is President Bush recieving direct messages from God to go into Iraq. No. Is Osama Bin Laden recieving direct messages to cuase 9-11. No. There it is, worked out. Do not say you are communicating with God, and that you are prefered by him when you are NOT. Now for the people that do not claim to be communicating with God. They don't know. Right? If a human is not communicating with God, then you shouldnt' talk, like yourself mr. Misrahi. What you should be talking about is logic and common sense and ADMITTING WHEN YOU ARE WRONG. I had to admit I was wrong millions of times to become who I am today. Humble. What is Isreal supposed to do? Actually behave in a manner that SHOWS they represent some form of a God loving nation, but of course that will not happen. Your right is is tough, that is why the truth needs to be spoken and when you and other writers are wrong you should just admit it. There isn't much anyone can do to convince Hizbollah and the Isrealis that they aren't really doing what God wants, if God even exists. But I do enjoy displaying all of your stupidity on the internet. Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 04:40 PM CST Can anyone tell me what is the difference between the US backing Israel and refusing to call for a cease-fire, and Iran or Syria (as is claimed by Israel) backing Hez and not calling for a cease-fire? Infact, Syria seems willing to actually attempt a diplomatic intervention to bring a cease-fire. What did we (US) do? We asked Hez to stop firing? That just seems like a joke to me. Why would we ask, from the US stand point, the enemy to stop firing first? We have influence in Israel and in the Lebanoneese governments. The government in Lebanon has no control over Hez, the US knows this. We are not making a REAL attempt. The US is only indulging in another propaganda campaign. "Look, we tried to ask them to stop first while dropping bombs on their heads." Come'on Georgey boy, we aren't all as stupid as you. We need to urge Israel to stop, then place multi-national forces along the borders to enforce the cease-fire. That is the only real solution, Koffi Annon knows this, but the US insists on instigating a larger regional war. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/24/2006 06:58 PM CST Hey John. LOL. You are talking to a confirmed atheist whose first post that was on this site or any other bar a private one that I doubt you are a member of. Still I enjoyed seeing you all whipped up into a self righteous frenzy, I think maybe you got my post and some other guys mixed up. I am saying that what is happening is the kind of misunderstanding typical of human nature.I certainly don't think that either the Israelis or Hizbollah are genetically programmed for evil, do YOU?? They are all just being myth-lead. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 07:19 PM CST James. What do you make of the fact that Nasrullah has stated that any UN peace keeping force would be treated as invaders by Hezbollah? It seems to me that he is either full of bluster or a very confident man and I have to say that what Hezbollah says it's going to do it generally does do, so Kofi may need a re-think about this. Hezbollah isn't aiming to win any wars with Isreal, it's not that stupid, but it certainly intends to win this battle and to get Lebanese prisoners released. The way that Arab politics in the region works means that any humiliation of Israel is taken as a major victory and a bugle call to the Arab 'street' to front up at the recruitment centres of the Iranian Reich. The west needs to get clever and sidestep the likes of Amadinajad into oblivion. We need to rapidly wean ourselves off dependance on the only real weapon he has got, our need for oil. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 07:42 PM CST Then my apologies, Misrahi, becuase we are in complete agreement. I am an agnotstic, but your right, human nature and the other comments I have posted is the cause. Ignorance at its best. I thought you were replying to my message that human nature is the cause for this problem. LOL. Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 09:12 PM CST John, I figured that was the case. I should have addressed the post to the guy who wrote the lead article, as I was replying to him. This whole Mid east situation is sure one heck of a fault line running across civilisation, it seems to me that much else that is evil in the world owes it's provenance in some way to this festering sore. I am jewish and have some empathy with israeli's and support their presence as a nation, but I have travelled across that entire region at one time or other and have found little that is inherantly evil in anyone, just a lot of people whose lack of worldliness is like putty in the hands of those that would be king. Religion is just a handy tool being wielded in the cause of personal endeavour e.g. Amadinajad, a mini-me Saladin if I ever I saw one, an old school crusader killer and empire builder. Arabs not signed up to fully Iranian goals in the region ( I.e Total domination) should be worried, not just the West. When Amadinajad gets his missiles he doesn't have to just aim them at Israel, and I would suspect that Saudi, Egypt, the Gulf states etc are extremely aware of that. Education and prosperity are the remedies needed to change the situation across the middle east, as well as a Palestinian acceptance of Israel and a peace settlement that for once is adhered to. You are right, forget G-d, he's just a tool in this very human of enterprises. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 09:59 PM CST TOTALLY AGREED AGAIN, COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF, LOL. Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 10:17 PM CST My point exactly Zed. If the forces deployed to the borders were multi-national, it would be hard for the world community to point the finger at Israel or Hezbollah. If either of them were to attck UN border guards, that group would be subject to a UN police action, which are never pretty. The goal would be to throw water in the pot, to bring Hezbollah's focus off of Israel and Israel's focus off of Hezbollah. This should help prevent further escalation in the region. If either Syria or Iran were to take action against a UN force they will have signed their death warrants. Of course this would only work if Russian troops were to be part of the UN force, else Hez would just point the finger at the US calling us the ring-leaders of a Israeli-European agression. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/24/2006 11:53 PM CST Very good point Zed. It would be more beneficial to Israel if the US used the billions we send them to pay for teachers, doctors, and schools to be built in Gaza and Lebanon. As the people become educated they will toss aside the ignorance of religion and booga-booga. In the US, though our education system is being threatened now, is what allowed us to excel above racism. I think the south could use another strong dose of edu-ma-cation though, as the bible thumpers are chanting, galssy-eyed along side GW. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/25/2006 01:47 AM CST
To inject a tiny bit of reality into this discussion Ami I. Posted by Moderator @ 07/25/2006 12:46 PM CST James you are right. Take a look at what is happening in states such as Qatar and in Oman where the rulers are beginning to ease there way past the landmine that is ingrained conservatism - religious, cultural - and lead their states toward the 21st century with education and cultural reform. Qatar especially is making strides toward democracy, equality of the sexes, and education that takes in world wide influences and styles. Even that much maligned station Al-Jazeera is influential in changing ingrained attitudes in Arab society through programming that George Bush obviously hasn't yet taken a long hard look at, this despite Al-Jazeera being seen by many in the west as some kind of pro-terrorist propaganda tool. Arab societies have many within them who do realise the need to progress away from the conservative and authoritarian status quo and are quietly working away to affect that change , but in order to speed the process the west needs to start sending far more positive signals rather than acting in ways that further entrench those more conservative forces within Arab society. A good way to do that would be to rapidly wean ourselves off oil dependance so that we stop acting like a sick junkie tramping all over Arabs in order to ensure we can maintain access to our 'FIX'. There you go, Global warming and the Middle east sorted in one easy post. LOL. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/25/2006 01:28 PM CST These are wise words, but I have to take issue with:- "We are the only people in the world, ridden by an intractable conflict with another people, who refuse to understand that a compromise will be reached only through an open dialogue." In fact this is true of every similar struggle. Examples would include the Turks and the Kurds, Russians and Chechens, and formerly Britain and the IRA (I remember a period in during which it was illegal to broadcast the words of the IRA and interviews were dubbed by voiceover actors). Possibly the difference is that Israelis perceive their victims as part of a larger whole posing an existential threat. After 60 years this has surely been proven an illusion. Better to start dealing in realities. Posted by Chris @ 07/25/2006 04:55 PM CST Mike Jabara you know why no one has replied to your statements, because you are telling the truth. No one has the guts to reply to you because they would be lying. I hope that things will get better for you. Posted by JOHN @ 07/25/2006 05:21 PM CST A couple of comments on comments:- "Terrorism is nothing less than a cancer. It must be exorcised swiftly, aggressively and completely. The surgeon must then close the wound and begin the patient on recovery therapy. But until the entire cancer is removed the patient will never fully recover...if not eventually die." This is argument by false analogy. Terrorism is not a discrete phenomenon which can be surgically removed. It is in most cases a response by the powerless to a situation they regard as intolerable. There can be no "surgeon's knife" where the 'terror' is bedded in national aspirations, counter-terror will only spawn further trauma and further hatred. In any event, Israel's destruction of Lebanon is less a knife than a bludgeon. Incidentally, I'm unsure how bombing Lebanese civilians and infrastructure to teach them a lesson for allowing Hezbollah to operate in their country can be classed any differently from putting a bomb on a Tel Aviv bus. Both are the use of terror for political ends, pure and simple. "Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda are not the product of Zionism, but the failure of Muslim society to keep pace with the West and the Far East, socially or economically." This is argument by half-truth. Hezbollah and Hamas have clearly grown up in direct response to Zionism, whether the Israeli occupation of Lebanon or the Territories. And Israel had just as many issues with the secular nationalists of the PLO. Islamic fundamentalism generally may well have a different dynamic, but you cannot regard the different strands as homogenous. Sub-Saharan Africa and much of Latin America (overwhelmingly Christian) have similarly failed to keep pace with "The West" so the economic problems of those countries with Muslim majorities probably have less to do with Islam as a system of thought than with the after-effects of colonialism. Conflating all of Islam with Al-Qaeda is also pretty shoddy thinking. There are Muslim majority societies from Turkey to Indonesia. They are all very different. All religions are inherently stupid and as Houllebecq suggested, Islam may well be the stupidest, but I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day. Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 05:37 PM CST and a moderate Jew or christian over a fundamentalist muslim, spike? How does that hang with you?? Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/25/2006 05:41 PM CST just thought I would post this for those interested... http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=540825...I know some of this appears to be conspiracy theorist like, but if you ignore the opinions in the article, the message holds true. The "Clean Break" document has been referenced many times by other news sources I have read over the past 5 years. Also earlier this year the US media reported numerous times a quote by one of our Generals, whom I'll try to locate an article on later for posting, Who stated Cheney intended to involve the US in a war with Iran in July. Though this is not the most direct route to accomplish those goals it can get us to the same destination just the same. If you visit the PNAC website you can read an open letter to President Clinton regarding the Clean Break plan, urging Clinton to "preemptively" attack Iraq. This was meant to be just the begining. Judging by the actions of the US (pretending to mediate a cease-fire, but putting no pressure on Israel to do so), I would say our plan is right on schedule. It's scarry when 60% of the individuals involved in devising a plan to dominate a region are now in the most key positions of your government, perfect position to implement their plans, and they have GW as the patsy. They have openly lied to the US people and the world on many, many ocassions to meet these goals. When we the people of the US ask for explanations for these lies, our justice department and congress is barred from investigating by the signature of GW time and time again. If that's not effectivly a Tyrant, then I don't know what is. Our congressmen, in particualr Charles B. Rangle, have recently been trying to slip reinstatement of the draft into bills, so far without success. Don't expect a long term resolution to this situation anytime soon. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/25/2006 07:07 PM CST Zed I would have thought the answer to that was obvious from my comment. Read it again and if you're still confused, let me know why. Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 11:35 PM CST I didn't dare think that Muslims, in your opinion, are considered so stupid that even a moderate jew or christian was significantly more to worry about, or am i still getting that wrong? You do seem terribly absolute in your conclusion, and somewhat at odds with what I consider to be a very high degree of intelligence amongst even the worst murderers of Islamonazi persuasion. AS Jesus is reported to have said on the cross, "Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do". Well, you don't have to be entirely daft to be a fundamentlist Muslim just blind to the power of your intellect and the self deciet that allow3s you to kill on a matter of principal, and without qualm, in fact it seems to be a positive advantage to have great intelligence if radical islam is your bag and you wish to succeed in its hierachy and the prosecution of its militant aims. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted but I see little else to modify my view of your suggestion, other than the fact that just maybe you are totally opposed to Jews and Christians in any shape or form, but that would be taking your point too far, wouldn't it?? Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 12:55 AM CST Israel just attacked a UNIFIL observation facility and killed 4 UN personel. Using Israeli logic (Kidnap 2 soldiers they bomb your entire country)would it be proper to nuke Tel Aviv? Posted by OMFG @ 07/26/2006 02:39 AM CST Spike, it is not Christians, Jews or Muslims that is the problem. Religion in and of itself is not the problem. Religion is just a tool used by the privilaged or extremeists to ralley the impoverished. Look at history, it happens everytime a social group becomes impoverished or opressed, they turn to religion. Religion is an abstract source of structure when their world has become chaotic. The real battle here is between the imperialists, weather they be Iranian, Israeli(Likud to be more precise), Syrian, American, etc. the people of these nations are nothing more than pawns being wittled away to further the objectives of those who are in power. All these countries, and most in the world are under the control of tyrants. George boy has his southern bible-belt (alot of us out of jobs or just living in uncertinty after 9/11), The Likud has thei Zionists, Iran Shiites,....If we want out of this mess we have to do like we did in the old days. Pick up the pitch forks and torches. Anyone ever seen Fight Club? Posted by James Sutter @ 07/26/2006 02:51 AM CST Well said, Dan. Posted by Lisa @ 07/26/2006 11:00 AM CST James, I didn't say religion was "the problem". I said religion was stupid. I agree that this is a conflict between imperialists. However I think religious fundamentalism also has to be fought on an ideological level as it is a major channel of false consciousness. Zed, I'm a little confused by your response. My point was that there are extremists in every religion and that moderates are preferable to fundamentalists (reason being preferable to slavish adherence to old tribal texts). I was responding to a comment that Islam was uniquely fundamentalist.
Political Islam is a menace, no question, but religious intolerance and violence are not unique to Islam. (Baruch Goldstein et al and the people who bomb abortion clinics and try and ban Darwinism in schools spring to mind; there are also some seriously nasty Hindu fundamentalists in India). Suggesting Posted by Spike @ 07/26/2006 12:35 PM CST Spike I agree with most of what you typed about religion fundamentalists, I do believe the underlying reason of religion fundamentalists is human nature's ignorance and dishonesty, but to just give a quick point on Darwiniasm, I have studied that and the idea of evolution for 5 years, and the facts are that it is just another faith, like other faiths. It is however a preferable faith because usually the lack of an existence in a God does not force people to command other people on what God wants or doesnt' want. But, in the true search of human origins, evolution does not provide answers. Mainly macro-evoltuion. But, I do enjoy your very very smart comments that you have made about the middle east conflict. What you and Mr. Misrahi state is what the world needs more of for world peace. Unfortunately, to intellectually think and be honest requires a very low level of laziness, therefore, most humans are lazy so they will not spend any effort on thinking and being honest. In conculsion, people like you and Misrahi, are small in number, so there will NEVER BE WORLD PEACE, unless every human uses logic before they act, and that is impossible because as both of you and I have made mistakes in the past it is impossible to act perfectly all the time. So, the only thing left in this world is to think about where we came from. If every human being can begin that quest and ask questions to figure out human origins, then problems such as territory disputes, money, power, and other things become insignificant. That is the only way to have world peace. Make people think, and think, and think. I am pessimistic about that though, which is why I conclude that in my opinion there will never be world peace. Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 04:56 PM CST
Hi, The logic of "no Israel, no problem" is born of total ignorance or total vicious depravity or both. It is like saying that if there were no Jews, there would have been no Nazi Germany. In both cases it is a clear historical falsehood. Iranians are mad at US and Britain for ousting Mossadegh. Jihadists in general are mad at Western society for being successful and tempting their followers away to a freer life. If you have 3 wives and a few concubines, all of whom obey or else, you don't want anyone filling their heads with sinful ideas like women's equality. Everyone in the Middle East who is poor is angry at the West for being rich. All these grievances, legitimate or otherwise, are fed upon by Islamist extremists. Likewise the idea that Israel would not exist but for the Holocaust is at best dubious. Without the Holocaust, there would have been a lot more Jews in Palestine. Does anyone think they would have sat still if an Arab state had been declared in all of Palestine, after the Zionists had invested so much in developing it? Remember - the Mandate for a Jewish national home in Palestine was given in 1922. Nobody knew about any Holocaust then. I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day. However right now, there are no Jews or Christians exploding themselves in Muslim public places or subways, and no Jews crashing airliners into buildings. More fuss is made about 350 Lebanese casualties caused by Israel than was made about a Million casualties of the Iran-Iraqi war, which was fought because of a bogus claim by Iraq. The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible. Ami Isseroff Posted by Moderator @ 07/26/2006 05:07 PM CST "I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day. However right now, there are no Jews or Christians exploding themselves in Muslim public places or subways, and no Jews crashing airliners into buildings. More fuss is made about 350 Lebanese casualties caused by Israel than was made about a Million casualties of the Iran-Iraqi war, which was fought because of a bogus claim by Iraq." YOUR RIGHT JEWS OR CHRISTIANS ARE NOT EXPLODING THEMSELVES IN MUSLIM PUBLIC PLACES OR SUBWAYS, THEY ARE EXPLODING BOMBS IN MUSLIM PUBLIC PLACES OR SUBWAYS. MORE FUSS IS MADE ABOUT 350 CASUALTIIES CAUSED BY ISREAL. ARE YOU JOKING OR DO YOU FORGET THE "FUSS" CREATED BY ISREAL ABOUT TWO, THATS RIGHT 2, KIDNAPPED SOLDIERS. The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible. THE REASON FOR THE ISREALI ATTACK THEN IS TO WIPE OUT THE EXISTENCE OF AN ORGANIZATION, HEZBOLLAH. WOW, SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME THING HIZBOLLAH SAIS WHEN THE REASON FOR THE HIZBOLLAH ATTACKS IS TO WIPE OUT THE EXISTENCE OF AN ORGANIZATION, ISREAL. SEE MODERATOR, OR AMI, OR WHO EVER THE HELL YOU ARE, YOU ARE STUPID. YOU HAVE NO INTELLECT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND THE HIZBOLLAH ORGANIZATION IS JUST A NAME. YOU ARE A TERRORIST WEARING THE NAME ISREAL. HIZBOLLAH IS THE OTHER TERRORISTS. SO KEEP TYPING AND SHOWING YOUR LEVEL OF INTELLECTUALITY THAT HARDLY IS HIGHER THAN A MONKEY. Posted by John @ 07/26/2006 06:01 PM CST Hey John! Most retarded people have an intellect that is slightly above that of a primate. The biggest conflicts they have is over a candy-bar or blankey. They usually end in someone getting smacked, or crapping their pants and running away crying. Don't insult monkey intellect! Posted by OMFG @ 07/26/2006 07:29 PM CST I stumbled onto this discussion while looking for a map of Israel and Lebanon. I read through the comments with some interest, some disbelief, and some disgust. Anyone who can give credence to a fanatic who will strap explosives to their own body and go out and kill children is never going to be able to sit down and come up with a cool and logical solution to ANY problem. First of all, the United States is not the reason/cause of all the problems in the Middle East. People in that region have been killing each other for thousands of years…the US has only been in existence for a little over 200. The root cause of the problem is simply hatred and intolerance. When children are brought up to hate other human beings, is it any wonder that there is never any peace? Look at the comments in this discussion. There is intolerance of God, Israel, the US, people who live in the south, and Christians; the message is to blame every one but the idiots who tunneled into Israel and kidnapped soldiers to hold for ransom. A couple of specific responses: Mike Jebara, Hezbollah is hiding in the civilian population and firing rockets into Israel from private homes. They are riding in ambulances marked with red crosses to move around from one place to another. The US isn’t firing missiles into Lebanon and targeting civilians. Why aren’t you upset at the reports that the first missiles from Lebanon were fired with the help of the Iranians? Why aren’t you upset that Israeli civilians are receiving hundreds of rocket attacks? Spike, Hezbollah and all the others have sprung up from hatred regardless of how you try to justify it. And finally to John - Jumping up and down, shouting, and putting people down who don’t agree with you is not a sign of intelligence and cool thinking. You sir, are a moron. Posted by David A @ 07/26/2006 08:02 PM CST Spike, Worry no longer. I re-read what I wrote and I must have been asleep at the time. John. You are the funniest moron I have ever come across. Your belief in yourself is extremely endearing; your idea of intellect is probably something to do with volume control, but none the less you make me laugh. Thank G-d they don't issue missiles in mental homes or we'd all be running for cover from you. ?;o) Cheers Mate. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 09:19 PM CST I'm glad people insult with no backing up of the actual ideas i have presented. See every time i insult one of you, I back it up, with logical support, but when you do you back it with,ummmmmm,oh, nothing, or just because. The real moron is the one who doesn't support their ideas. So keep pretending you are intellectuals, just like the smart people in the middle east that keep fighting. I may sound full of myself, but I am willing to change my mind to any, any, alternative thought, but none of you have the courage to type anything worth discussing. The moment I counter with a logical response that uses PROOF you run. So the challenge still remains. I challenge any of you to an intellecual honest debate, then you will see that you are just AFRAID OF BEING WRONG. JUST LIKE ISREAL, JUST LIKE HIZBOLAH, AND OTHERS. Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 09:32 PM CST Misrahi, your quote, "Your belief in yourself is extremely endearing; your idea of intellect is probably something to do with volume control" LOL, can you honestly tell me that your belief in yourself is extremely NOT endearing. What is your definition of intellect? Common please give me a definition. By the way you forgot to type "o" in the word God. Moron. Posted by JOHN @ 07/26/2006 09:56 PM CST You see John, the problem is that the presentation of your arguements is noticeably youthful, interesting and amusing, but extremely youthful. If you are over 19 or 20 though then I'll revert to the moronic tag. I've blotted my own copy book now by taking a time out to swap insults but prehaps you might take a few lessons in debating some time, you'll find that acknowledging the presence of others without first insulting them is a fairly good start to the process. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 10:03 PM CST It occurs to me that in this case a reasonable explanation of the word Intellect is that it is by definition, that which does not need to be explained to one who posesses it. I most certainly did leave out the O in G-d. Have you yet to work out why I always do that or are you merely being facetious? LOL. Seek and ye shall find, Dooohh, no, not gold you fool; the answer as to why. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 10:11 PM CST To David, Do you agree with what Hizbolah is doing???? Well based on your response, I shouldn't disagree with people right? And finally to John - Jumping up and down, shouting, and putting people down who don’t agree with you is not a sign of intelligence and cool thinking. You sir, are a moron. So, David, would you not insult the intelligence of the Hizbolah leader???? Hypocrite, you already have,"who can give credence to a fanatic who will strap explosives to their own body and go out and kill children is never going to be able to sit down and come up with a cool and logical solution to ANY problem." DAVID ARE YOU DISAGREEING??? MORON, WHO GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH AN ORGANIZATION, AND THEN TELL OTHERS NOT TO DISAGREE. AT LEAST I DISAGREE WITH BOTH SIDES. YOU JUST BLINDLY TAKE SIDES. GO SIR FIND ME THE LAST INTELLECTUAL YOU ECOUNTERED, THAT YOU AGREED WITH, AND I CAN GAURANTEE I WOULD FIND SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH HIM OR HER. A SIGN OF INTELLIGENCE IS NOT WETHER PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOU OR NOT. BECAUSE IN THAT CASE THEN EVERONE IS UNINTELLIGENT BECAUSE NOBODY AGREES. Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 10:16 PM CST
SEEK, AND YOU SHALL FIND, WOW. VERY GOOD. Now what do you want me to
OH, I SEE, SO THAT IS WHY YOU ARE NOT EXPLAINING IT TO ME,OHH, THANKYOU
now, lets get to bussiness, you lie. You like to change your stories. CHEERS MATE. Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 11:57 PM CST
By your self labelling as Agnostic I thought that you couldn't know if there was a G-d, or at least very sceptical about the possibility, so why bother suggesting that It has characteristics unless you are in fact a believer in its existance. I don't believe in a G-d at all, but I am superstitious, hence an adherance to a foolish piece of Jewish frippery - the incomplete name, sans vowels. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/27/2006 12:14 AM CST ohh, finally asking a good question, very good. I will help you, the reason i bother suggesting God might have characteristics is based on logic. For example, I will give you a little preview. Love exists in every human being, now IF there is a creator, and he created humanity, then what follows logically is that he created LOVE because love exists. So God who created love cannot be anything lower than the love displayed by for example Mother Teresa. Because it is impossible for a God to create a human being that had more love than the creator. So the logical conclusion is that if God does exist he must be soo much love. Therefore, the fact that I can deduce this information from the logic that I have presented does not necessarily mean that all of a sudden God does exist. So you see, it is amazing what a human can think of when they actually think about the God that they DO BELIEVE IN. Now that you have admitted that you are superstitious, then I do believe you have shown who really needs proffesional help. LOL. Posted by JOHN @ 07/27/2006 12:35 AM CST John, I've tried to figure out exactly what you were trying to say to me but I've given up. If anything, you have proven my point that someone with a radical mind is not generally capable of rational discussion, all you can do is rage, scream, and hurl insults. All I can say that your reaction to my comment must mean that I nailed you cold. Posted by David A @ 07/27/2006 02:13 AM CST JOHN I AM NOT!! WRONG!!.........retarded people DO crap their pants and run away crying...sometimes they like to roll in it first..though..=/ Posted by OMFG @ 07/27/2006 03:27 AM CST Wow, with all the crying, name calling, and ego bashing...I have only one question.....ummmmmmm...what were we talking about? Posted by James Sutter @ 07/27/2006 04:06 AM CST
to david, Sound familiar jackass, sorry david. Listen parents sometimes are dumber than their children, but that does not only exist in the middle east you racist pig. Posted by john @ 07/27/2006 03:41 PM CST Uh-huh, When all else fails the feeble minded throw everything they have rolling around in their cranium at you, even if the thoughts have no inter-linking themes or logical connection. Wnat to fight me for my candy bar or blankey john? Posted by OMFG @ 07/27/2006 04:44 PM CST Ami: "The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible." Deeply ironic given that Israel has repeatedly ignored UN resolutions. Had Israelis pushed their own government to comply with some of those we might not have the current mess. Rather than bigging up Hezbollah, which is evidently in no position to destroy anything bigger than a few apartment blocks, I would have thought the job of Israeli 'peaceniks' at present would be to tell their government as loudly as possible to stop destroying the Lebanon. Gush Shalom at least understand this. Frankly I expected better from these parts. Posted by Spike @ 07/27/2006 06:02 PM CST And another thing..... .....My understanding, and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, is that Hezbollah did not fire any serious missiles into Israel until the Israelis started bombing Lebanon. I heard that they lobbed a few short-range mortars as a diversionary tactic when they kidnapped the IDF troops, slightly injuring 4 Israelis, but that was all. If those are the facts, and I accentuate the "if", why is there a need to launch such a massive attack on Hezbollah? Clearly they're a nasty group politically, and I can see why having them on the border would make Israel anxious, but does the level of threat justify Israel's actions? Were the 11,000 missiles not primarily intended as a deterrent? It looks to me like further unnecessary humiliation of Israel's Arab neighbours, and therefore storing up yet more trouble for the future. Unless, as some have posited, this has to do with US plans to attack Iran and removing Hezbollah from the equation is part of clearing the way for that. Either way, this looks like a war of choice, not of necessity. Posted by Spike @ 07/27/2006 06:17 PM CST And now Al-Qaeda is added to the mix..(I wonder, did we, U.S.A., ever decommission them?) Anyhow, just as in Iraq, with a constant struggle against a "terrorist" cell..there will be no end in sight for the conflict. Well like Georgey said...we will take the fight to them. Looks like we're going to Lebanon boys. Next stop Iran. Because we all know...as Rummey tells it, that's where Osama is. What a bait and switch game this is turning out to be. Don't be suprised if the conflict spreads to Syria..and like magic...Al-Queda and Osama decide to set up shop there too. I hope I can travel around with ease like that if I am ever in need of Dialisis treatments. That guy is the healthiest dieing man...ever! In reality I think we know people have caught on to that game and we will most likely come up with another ficticious Al-Qaeda general in Lebanon..his name will be something like Abu Marsief Al-Zarwini or something ..we like the Zar prefix in the last name ..makes it sound more ominous. Posted by James Sutter @ 07/27/2006 07:06 PM CST
By the way David, about my insults. I would never ever insult Mother Posted by john @ 07/27/2006 08:40 PM CST John, thank you for being the perfect example of what my original thoughts were. I don't think anyone could follow your line of reasoning whether they were 7 or 77. If you cannot let others express viewpoints that may be different than yours without spewing all the wild rhetoric, then why participate in an open forum for ideas? My whole point was that you can't sit down and try to negotiate anything with someone who would rather kill you than work things out. For the record, I am a Christian who lives in Texas, believes that George Bush is doing what he can to keep terrorist off the street in my home town, and believes that Israel has every right to defend itself against a terrorist group who wants to kill every Jew that breathes. If you believe different than me, then that's ok. If you want to spew, I don't care. I would rather converse on an adult level. Let me leave you with one thought though, and think about this carefully. If you were to invade my home to kidnap someone in my family the way that Hezbolla invaded Israel and kidnapped those soldiers, I would give you a definition of "defending my turf" that even you could understand. Posted by DAvid A @ 07/28/2006 02:35 AM CST It's ok David, I believe in fairies and Jesus horses too. I just love the way Zeenu wears it's hair. Texan's, Christian's, and George Dubbya..now there's a combo to make anyone know the glory that is Retardation. Posted by OMFG @ 07/28/2006 03:31 AM CST "believes that George Bush is doing what he can to keep terrorist off the street in my home town" ROFL! I guess he's keeping those pesky reds from under your bed too? For the record, Hezbollah only got set up in the first place because Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. So your 'defence of the homeland' analogy works both ways (in fact rather more persuasively in the other direction). If people like you had been born Lebanese you'd be first in the queue to join. Posted by Spike @ 07/28/2006 02:23 PM CST DAVID HERE ARE YOUR QUOTES: "I am a Christian who lives in Texas"
"If you were to invade my home to kidnap someone in my family the way
LOL, DAVID I WILL TEACH YOU A LITTLE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. NUMBER ONE,
NOW MORON, EITHER YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, AND YOU WILL DO WHAT JESUS DO.
TOLD YOU THAT YOU ARE DUMB, BUT HEY, AT LEAST YOU ARE NOT A DUMB JEW. Posted by john @ 07/28/2006 04:29 PM CST "My whole point was that you can't sit down and try to negotiate anything with someone who would rather kill you than work things out." AGAIN DAVID, THIS DOESN'T SOUND VERY CHRISTIAN LIKE. FROM MY STUDYING CHRISTIANITY, I CAN RECALL A FEW NAMES OF TRUE CHRISTIANS THAT I AM SURE WOULD RATHER NEGOTIATE AND STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT. THESE CHRISTIANS DIED BEFORE EVEN THINKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE ELSE.
FIRST ON THE LIST IS OF COURSE: SO MY MAIN POINT IS THAT YOU ARE NOT REALLY A CHRISTIAN, YOU ARE JUST A PRETENDER. NOW FOR THE REAL ISSUE AT HAND, THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS CAUSED BY INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOURSELF THAT "SPEW" RELIGION OUT OF THERE MOUTH. BOTH SIDES. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND HIZBOLAH, IS THAT THEY WERE BORN IN LEBANON, HENCE THEY SUPPORT LEBANON, AND YOU WERE BORN IN TEXAS, THEREFORE YOU SUPPORT YOUR COWBOY BUSH. YOU SUPPORT ISREAL BECAUSE IT IS MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, JUST LIKE HIZBOLLAH SUPPORTS THEIR VIEWS BECAUSE IT IS IN THE KORAN. SO EITHER YOU PLACE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE IN A BOOK SUCH AS THE KORAN OR THE TORAH SCRIPTURES OR THE BIBLE, AND SUPPORT HIZBOLLAH ON THEIR BLIND FAITH. OR YOU STEP OUT OF YOUR IGNORANCE AND REALIZE THAT YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR VIEW ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST. YES TOUGH WORDS I KNOW, BUT EITHER THESE TOUGH WORDS ARE SPOKEN TO IDIOTS LIKE YOU AND HIZBOLLAH AND AL- QUEDA, OR I DO NOTHING. I CHOOSE TO TEACH. I HAVE BEEN TEACHING ALL MY LIFE, SO I DO KNOW WHY PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THINGS. FOR ME TO TELL YOU EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT WHY PEOPLE ARE IGNORANT AND DISHONEST WOULD REQUIRE A LOT OF TYPING, SO IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND AND BE ENLIGHTENED THEN I WILL TEACH YOU WITH MANY MORE RESPONSES. Posted by JOHN @ 07/28/2006 05:08 PM CST
Dont seem to be any comments from Women here why is that I wonder? Posted by Nami @ 07/29/2006 12:22 AM CST Nice sentiment Nami, but women can't even get along with one another for longer than it takes to discuss a dress. An honest woman will admit as much. It is not a male driven war. It is not a religious war. It is a war against an oppressor. Israel does not feel they need to negotiate with those that are obviously weaker. Morals are not a consideration. Israel is more powerfull militarily. Israel neglects to realize though that with every bomb they create more enemies. They cannot destroy the world. Eventually that kind of short sightedness will lead to their own demise. They don't realize they are making enemies of their allies. They will slowly rott unless they change their reactionary methods. Posted by OMFG @ 07/29/2006 01:20 AM CST John, I was wrong. You are not a moron. You're just an anonimous, pitiful loud mouth who sits behind a keyboard. I won't engage you on your points of Christianity because you know nothing about it. I find it amazing that the whole of Islam got radical because of a cartoon, yet you can spew filth abot God and Jesus with impunity...for now anyway. Don't mistake the tolerance of a Christian for weakness, you may be surprised. You can spend all night responding to this, but be aware that I probably won't be back. My original point of intolerance and hatred has been proven many times in this...what would you call this? It's not a discussion. Posted by DavidA @ 07/29/2006 01:21 AM CST OMFG ( i can guess what it means. LOL) Maybe the women you know are the ones you have trained to remain totally obediate to your wallet. Whatever differences women find they have between them they are able to reach a practical solution to most arguements without reaching into their pants to compare missiles. John. You are sick, and you know it too don't you!! This and other forums are I suspect the only places where anyone will even give your messianic centre of the universe drivel a minute of their time. Seek help now John, you need it. Your skin will look better, the bags under your eyes will go away, you will have more energy and your sheets will not need washing as often as they do currently. Prehaps it's just a case of growing up, but I think your problem is deeper than just hormones. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/29/2006 02:33 PM CST Just reading the posts on here it is not hard to understand how things got to be the way they are. But I am sick to death with both "sides." The history of antagonizing relationships between one mode of thinking and another, and figuring out where the "fault" lies is like arguing which came first, the chicken or the egg.
Let's argue about it. So what will happen? Will both sides just keep hammering at one another until one side or another says "UNCLE?"
I feel for the common citizen, the people that care less about which came first, the chicken or the egg, and just want to be able to live their lives with their families in peace. Posted by Kimberly @ 07/29/2006 04:04 PM CST Hi Kimberly. Having now had the bleeding obvious pointed out to us - that we are pointing out the bleeding obvious to each other without seeking any real solutions - what's your contribution to the debate with regard to a solving the situation in the middle east so that your feelings for the common man can be normalised to ignorance of them, because they are no longer in the news dying? By the way, neither chicken nor egg came first, what came first was the desire for an omellette, no the desire for chicken chasseur, no, omellette, no, Chasseur.....oh fudge. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/29/2006 04:46 PM CST I hope by the way our Jewish brothers are going about the whole thing they do not further ammunition to those who keep asking that question: Was Adolf Hitler right with the Jews? Posted by Magaji Abdulrazaq @ 07/29/2006 10:21 PM CST Hi Magaji. I thought the question for our Muslim brothers ( those that actually can be bothered; not all or even close to a majority I would suggest) is why the f*** didn't Hitler finish the job, I.e the president of a soveriegn state called Iran, a country that is much maligned due to the fact that its perfectly intelligent and pleasant populace is being led to infamy by a coterie of whacko muppetts high on revolutionary zeal and enjoying very much indeed, thankyou, their brief flirtation with absolute power. A flirtation that has so enamoured them of it that they are trying to export an empire of ultra conservative sharia piety across the Arabic world, let alone destroy the evil zionist bar stewards that have blighted their existance since the jewish 7th century dismissal of Mohammed's plaguerism and his macho insistance that his version of Judaic thought be seen as the only religion in town. It is no coincidence that the flowering of islamic culture took place some distance from Mecca or Medina. Now even Iran, that bastion of individual thought and lack of Arabic wahabist conformity to the arid literalcy of Koranic and hadithic, moral and cultural imperatives, is in thrall to a few cranks for whom dialogue within Islamic society is apostasy and to whom totalitarian, authoritarian monologue is all. Thank G-d that beneath the corruption that is the Islamic state of Iran there beat hearts of pure non conformity, except amongst those that benefit from the status quo. The Shia Reich of Amadinajad, may find fuel in Israel, but that mini-me Saladin had better look over his shoulder because shortly he will find his 'people ' are coming to get him and his fascist cronies. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 12:04 AM CST
Zed Misrahi, I like you, you are funny. lol. I will take your advice Posted by johnn @ 07/30/2006 02:38 AM CST I always did wonder why Hitler hated Jews. LOL. Zed maybe if all the jews died in WW2 the world would be a quiter place. The high decibel level of their crying is deafening. See if Jews where smart then there wouldn't be a faith called Judaism, because they would have accepted Jesus. Intellectually speaking Jesus does sound like a God to me, one worth of a little respect. Notice the United States Constitution is based on Christianity, not the Jewish Faith. Yes, i know, enough talk about religion. Thats right, all the religious people that go to church, temples and Mosks are very smart and NOT SICK. Posted by john @ 07/30/2006 03:37 AM CST Sheesh John, its like watching a pinball machine write a novel; you bounce off more references than a mosquito on an ordinance map, looking for Synapse city. You are the punk version of The Glass Bead Game, The Magester Ludi-crous, Goldmund gone ferral on crystal Meth. If it weren't for the fact that you are just a rogue impulse looking for a life I'd take you seriously. Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 01:55 PM CST Is this current crisis a repeat of the 1982 attack of the Israelis attack on Lebanon? Is this the beginning of WW3. What about the sleeping cells in the USA, is their fear of racial profilling and internal political wars within the U.S.? Posted by brickhouse @ 07/30/2006 09:46 PM CST No wonder there are wars in this world. Just reading some of your posts shows and reflects the anger people have towards each other. Peace starts with each and one of us. However, some are too cemented in their ideals and opinions that they are blinded by their selfish hearts. No need to respond with unrespectfull remarks, I won't be checking in anymore. Peace to all. Posted by Anna-Maria Lahire @ 07/30/2006 09:57 PM CST Another comment from another Texan who happens to be a Christian, who also happens to be a woman. I did not vote for George Bush nor do I support the war he began in Iraq. While I was raised a Christian, I differ from most because I believe in everyone's right to believe in whatever God that they were taught to believe in or whom they may come to believe in. There IS room for many Gods and not a single one of us has any right whatsoever to feel that only his or her individual God is the only right and valid God and should be the same for every people. However, I don't feel that the wars going on now are about someone being pissed off about God. The wars are about oil, domination, and greed and as someone previously stated, the ignorant and downtrodden are whipped into a frenzy through many means, one being the use of religion, to persuade them to fight to fill someone else's greedy pocket or deranged fanatical mind. With women in a more powerful position, we MIGHT have a chance to bring about a reasonable resolution because from childhood, we are taught to nurture, to get along, to iron out our differences because we know we have to get along in order to survive. As we all know, men are only interested in determining who has the largest penis. Women don't give a damn. We just want to go home at the end of the day and know that everyone is safe in their beds and that there is food in the cupboard for tomorrow. If it boils to the point that a woman has to bitchslap someone down to the ground in order to make folks behave, so be it. Drop a bomb on the troublemakers, both sides if need be, and sort it out tomorrow. Those who cannot play well with others will be removed from the game and forced to stand in a corner until they learn to play right or until hell freezes over. But alas, men rule the world at this time and have never been known to compromise in the heat of battle. So here we are, stuck in the midst of watching yet another senseless battle, knowing that women in Lebanon and Israel are going to see another night of not being able to sleep and mourning the loss of families and friends. My sympathy and heart goes out to those who are the victims of the men determined to wage wars. Blood and tears are not unique to any one religion and never will be. Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 01:05 AM CST Ras: "the ignorant and downtrodden are whipped into a frenzy through many means, one being the use of religion, to persuade them to fight to fill someone else's greedy pocket or deranged fanatical mind." As long as you accept that this process is going on in Texas also I am with you on this. I'm a little sceptical about the idea that girl power is the route to non-violent conflict resolution though. Margaret Thatcher certainly didn't take that approach to the Falklands crisis, and neither Golda Meir nor Indira Gandhi were exactly beacons of benign femininity. I suspect the issue is about power rather than gender. Regarding chickens and eggs, the answer in this instance is for everyone to leave the kitchen, or at least put down their knives. The fact that the Bush Administration is giving one side permission to turn the heat up is the most immediate problem here. Don't Americans feel that Arabs and Muslims hate them enough already, without providing more reasons? Contact your congressman, demand they push for an immediate unconditional ceasefure NOW. Simple as that. Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 01:20 PM CST To Ras, Your comments first: "I differ from most because I believe in everyone's right to believe in whatever God that they were taught to believe in or whom they may come to believe in. There IS room for many Gods and not a single one of us has any right whatsoever to feel that only his or her individual God is the only right and valid God and should be the same for every people. However, I don't feel that the wars going on now are about someone being pissed off about God. " The problem with the idea of God is not so much God's existence, or lack of existence, or the existence of many Gods. The problem is indirectly related to religion and God. What I am trying to say, is that the fact that you or any human being "believes" in a God or Gods without proof, is the ignorance and stupidity displayed by mankind that leads to war and fighting. Human beings lack of ability to think logically and carefully about the nature of who they are and what they want in life is the cause of wars. I will give you an example regarding yourself. You say that everyone has the right to believe in many Gods or whatever god they might choose. That is not ok, because then you are giving credibility for individuals to say that God told me this land is mine (ex. Isreal). Another problem is that of Communism where there is no God, and then humans are the gods. Instead of every human having the right to believe whatever they want, every human should use the correct meaning of belief. Another example, I do BELIEVE that my father and mother would help me in case of a crisis. That is the true definition of the word "believe". The fact that I know that my mother and father would help me because they love me is a fact. The word "believe" has been screwed up over history to almost equal the word "opinion". To believe in today's world is an opinion. Now everybody has the right to an opinion, but that opinion is just that, it is only a hypothesis. When a human does not think of their opinions, for example the God or lack of God, then those opinions become reality. When a human is not honest to themselves these lies and opinions become real. I can state many more examples. The three main religions of Islam, Christianity, and the Jewish faith, all profess that they believe in the same God. Now how come a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew does not think about WHY there is ONE God between all three, but three different religions. Did God decide to teach humanity three different religions and confuse humanity, and then He decides to just watch and laugh his ass off, or is the problem with humans themselves. The real problem is what you have stated. The fact that every human decides to just BLINDLY believe and accept things as true because they are too lazy to think about tough issues is what leads humans to believe in crap. I highly doubt that God wished there to be 3 main religions when they are soo different. That leads to confusion and dissagreements. Another example is the Shiite and the Suni sections of Islam, they disagree not because God said this or that, they disagree because again humans accept blindly. Another example is the thousands of denominations of Christianity. Again, what did Jesus really say? Well according to every Christian I met, Jesus said exactly what these Christians want Jesus to say. In other words, humans just place God in their pocket and say that they know exactly what God wants. So, do humans have the right to believe whatever form of God that they do want, the answer is HELL NO. THE FACT THAT I CAN SAY THAT GOD TOLD ME TO GO KILL SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY ARE EVIL, IS NOT A RIGHT. THE FACT THAT A JEWISH PERSON CAN SAY THIS IS MY LAND BECAUSE GOD SAID SO, IS NOT A RIGHT. THE PROBLEM IS HUMANS ARE NOT HONEST. EITHER GOD REALLY SPOKE TO YOU AND THEN YOU BETTER ACT IN SUCH UNIVERSAL, LOGICAL, LOVING MANNER, OR GOD DID NOT SPEAK TO YOU WHICH THEN LEADS TO DISHONESTY, BLIND FAITH, STUPIDITY, AND IGNORANCE. Posted by John @ 07/31/2006 04:02 PM CST Yes, Chris, this absolutely does occur in Texas, every other state of the Union and throughout the world. Nevermind that Texas is portrayed as a big, important progressive and advanced state with wealth and power, there are certainly a lot of po' ignunt folks down here, too. Just turn on Jerry Springer or Cops. The people on those shows resemble a lot of my neighbors. The "girl-power" thing was written partially tongue-in-cheek. Jeez, there are mostly males here so why would I wish to offend the majority by tossing out something so undiplomatic? I think the quota on this board for lack of diplomacy has already been filled. And now to address John and his spin on what I said. Perhaps I did forget to include that I also believe in the right of others to NOT believe in a God. I have no bone to pick with you if you have no desire to believe in something without empirical proof. There is room in this world for all to believe in whatever higher power that there may or may not be. The problem lies within what morals and ethics an individual chooses to follow and believe rather than in whether or not it is derived from belief in an omnipotent being. I don't give two hoots whether someone is an atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Warlock or leprechaun...it is within one's heart and mind in which the good or bad resides. Following the false doctrines of selfish and fanatical humans are the reasons we have wars. I have yet to find one book, be it the Bible, Koran, Gone with the Wind or In Cold Blood that an individual cannot read any one of them and come away with a different perception than his brethren. We are human and find usually find what we seek or what we are taught to seek. It is rare and it is dear to stumble across an altruistic teacher who shall teach us to read, to think, and to act above and beyond the norm. And John, my friend, you seem no different from those who fight a war in the name of their religion. You appear to stand a bit too firmly in your denouncement of individuals having the free will to choose what to believe in and having individuals at the end of the day decide to stand across the line of right or wrong. Not one religion teaches us to war. It is man that does so. The thousands of branches of religion that you speak of are no different than a box of Tide. ALL hold the same basic ingredients of good and evil. The box is simply dressed in different colors and screech out different word-bytes in order to appeal to the masses, who are as varied as the number of stars in the sky. There are fanatics in Christianity (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, the Pope, etc) who use religion as a tool of manipulation and propaganda to further their own agendas just as there are in the world of Allah, and those who would use the Koran to teach Jihad. Unfortunately, some of those fanatics are just a bit too loud, a bit too compelling and a bit too powerful to allow ignorance to remain in bliss. The bliss is taken and twisted into a powerful killing machine, creating distrust, chaos, and death along the way. Perhaps if all the leaders in the entire world could be trusted to agree to force feed the Desiderata to ALL CHILDREN...in ALL LANGUAGES...each day for six to ten years, then this world might have a chance. But it will never happen. Nothing in the Desiderata would appeal to a powerful leader. Hardly a soul arrives at the seat of leadership in a country through a totally peaceful journey. Manipulation, corruption, secrets, bribes, sellouts...those are the tools of the trade. And those are what run the world. It is up to the individual to educate his children to be tolerant, to hold an open mind, to seek justice, to seek the proper way...the proper way being one which does not encroach upon the rights and sensibilities of others, while striving to maintain a peaceful and personable life, reaching out to others along the way whenever one can rather than to manipulate the ignorant, the poor, and the hungry. Perhaps I am dead wrong but I feel that those who have had the good fortune to be raised in a civil manner, with a good education, with a full buffet and good conversation at the supper table every night...those of us who have been afforded that, have the duty and responsibility of reaching out to those who have less and would follow any doctrine in order to feed themselves and their children. It is up to those who have to enlighten the have nots that they may have the ease of mind and sensibiities to seek what is right rather than to seek expediency. One whose inner being is as hungry as his stomach will chase the first bone tossed. Hence, war. Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 07:10 PM CST to Ras, your comments again: "The problem lies within what morals and ethics an individual chooses to follow and believe rather than in whether or not it is derived from belief in an omnipotent being. I don't give two hoots whether someone is an atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Warlock or leprechaun...it is within one's heart and mind in which the good or bad resides. Following the false doctrines of selfish and fanatical humans are the reasons we have wars. I have yet to find one book, be it the Bible, Koran, Gone with the Wind or In Cold Blood that an individual cannot read any one of them and come away with a different perception than his brethren. We are human and find usually find what we seek or what we are taught to seek. It is rare and it is dear to stumble across an altruistic teacher who shall teach us to read, to think, and to act above and beyond the norm. Ras, the problem is that morals and ethics is deeply linked to the issue of God, and the none existence of God. Where do morals, conciesness, and values come from???? Evolution, God, society, where??? If every man and woman is left to make their own "heart", own "morals", then we would have chaos. I do agree with you that people's actions are in their hearts and minds, but that is not all, see people's actions that cause war is when they do not use their hearts and minds, which is ignorance. But, there is one thing that I have learned from studying human origins, and that is psychologically, every human is or will suffer at some point in time from not knowing where they came from. That is when they turn to some religion blindly, and they then act in a wrongfull manner. Most of what you typed is exactly they way I think too, but there is just more to in than we can imagine. Posted by john @ 07/31/2006 08:54 PM CST So lovely to see that you and I are able to see eye to eye upon a few things. In seeking "truth", whether it be one's origins or the destination one wishes to embark upon for the future, it is indeed a double-edged sword in which individuals must necessarily have the education and confidence to forge a good path, lest they fall prey to those who would have them follow...and to follow blindly due to their ignorance and quest for self. Unfortunately, many do not realize that the journey itself can be the reward, rather than in a heavenly afterlife playing a harp or surrounded by a multitude of virgins. I feel that morals, conscience and values come from our teachings. The best of people can make mistakes and be turned aside from a righteous path in a weak moment by following those who are less open of heart, just as a "bad" person can be persuaded away from those who wish great harm by gathering up enough soldiers from amongst those with weakened hearts and souls. This is the reason why fanatics are so determined to fan the flames and and why they are so hellbent on creating chaos, bewilderment and confusion. It does not give a person enough time to sit down and think for himself and to come to a just conclusion. Rather, it is a manner in which to brainwash and to lead the sheeple yet again into chasing after the dreams in which only a few benefit, yet in which many end up fighting. I feel that I am blessed in that I was taught to use my brain to think for myself rather than to hand it over to someone else to use for his or her cause. I am blessed in that my parents and their parents and my grandparents were schooled in the morals, ethics, and values that have promoted my belief in independence, peace, and humanity. I am blessed mostly, in that I do not seek instant gratification for short-term goals but rather to look down the road to where the consequences of my actions may lead me and those who are around me. While I cannot explain where each and every trait that lies within me has originated, I can say with sufficient confidence that it did not come from osmosis. I believe that inherently, most people are good when left alone to contemplate and come to a good conclusion. I also believe that inherently, many people forget to use their brains, many people jump on a bandwagon, and many people are only too easily led astray. Again, therein lies the lack of education in both brainpower and principles. People can and often do revert to a neanderthal way of thought when their sense of security and wellbeing is threatened. It takes a particular strength from within to resist false hopes and to see beyond each quick fix. Those who would lead the oppressed and ignorant astray do so by psychological plunder, replacing one's beliefs and goodness with rhetoric and propaganda. Those tools are given to ignorant people and whetted to a fine point in order to incite them to follow. In my opinion, ignorance and hunger are the most difficult battles to fight and until those two things are resolved, throughout the world, we will have wars. A man cannot listen to reason or look to the health of his soul until he and his children are fed. Even in America, it is hard for anybody to help feed a hungry, desperate neighbor, then help to lead him to a better place. There are just too many bandwagons screaming at the just-sated man. JUMP ON ME, JOIN UP WITH ME, FOLLOW ME. All too often, those driving the bandwagons are the very ones offering the food so that they can lure the ignorant, the hurt, the poor...into their own clutches. Religion is not the only bandwagon ensnaring the population. It just happens to be the one being used right now in the Middle East. You have to admit that up until only the past few hundred years, the Middle East hasn't been exposed to a whole lot of anything other than their own history. Religion is about all they have. America is such a young country and huge melting pot that religion isn't the only thing to hold our interest. We have our multitudes of religions, civil rights organizations, PETA, MADD, death penalty activists, and so many other groups that any empty vessel on two legs can fill themselves immediately with whatever trips their trigger. I could go on and on but would likely further digress than I already have. Any questions? lol Ah, let me get back to your original question, John. I still think morality, values and ethics originate from how and what we are taught and whether we are educated to use our brains to bring about a better world for all or whether we are educated to take what we want. Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 10:24 PM CST I came from my Mama! Nuff said. Suffering is over. How we get here is of no consequence. What we do now directly affects our offspring. Pretty damn obvious to me. Put down your guns, knives and spit balls; and start acting like god damned adults instead of sniviling whiney little Miss Nancies! "It's my peice of dirt...No it's mine!" Posted by OMFG @ 07/31/2006 11:28 PM CST I am truly taken back by the length of the diatribes on this post. This conflict is motivated by one thing, religion. I am a believer in God, however not of conventional thinking. My God comes from within, not on the pages of some ancient book(s) used to control a population. My best advice to the principals of this conflict is to throw away their extremist views of what they believe is right, and take a look at the atrocities they are committing in the name of religion. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated. Their actions are putting the innocent citizens of Lebanon at risk. Israel's opinion of themselves as a victimized society, always being attacked by "these terrorist animals" is weak. I grow tired of them playing the innocent victim in this and then waging an unmerciful attack against a country that doesn't stand a chance. I will end with this, Israel and the Jews, why are you so hated in your region over so many years. Take time for some introspective thought on this question and you will see that you are not the innocent victims you all so often claim. Posted by micaji @ 08/01/2006 08:58 AM CST
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