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Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah: The vicious circle of righteousness, force, and loss of compassion


In the film "Paradise Now," one of the Palestinian potential suicide bombers tells his girl friend: "The Israelis took ownership on both the righteousness of being victims and on the total powerfulness. They have left us no choice but to do the same." I wish to add to this important sentence, that when both sides take ownership on both righteousness and powerfulness, there is no space left for compassion. When rockets fall on the northern and southern parts of Israel, the Israeli Jewish people shrink back into their primary sense of victimhood: We are a small people, threatened by many external forces that should be confronted with determinism and powerfulness. This primary sense of victimhood is based on righteousness of the weak ('who tries to kill you, kill him first'). We have experienced this sense of victimhood many times during the last decades so that it has become like a second nature to us. It gives us the feeling of togetherness and authorizes our government in our name to shoot at the enemy, including their civilians, as they shoot at ours; as in war, like in war. We are well trained in this scenario and possibly prefer it to all other possible scenarios of this region.

The consciousness of many of our people rotates around this righteousness of the victim. It is not a coincidence that we are much less aware of our power and strength and its negative effects on the others who suffer from our powerful acts. The victims have an advantage over the perpetrators: They do not have to take responsibility for their own actions, as these are only a reaction to the evil acts of the others. Therefore, we should perhaps be reminded in these harsh days of bombs and fighting in Gaza and Lebanon, that it was our power-oriented behavior in Lebanon and in the occupied territories that contributed to the creation of both Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Hamas in the territories. These militant organizations were created partially as a reaction to our excessive use of power. After these organizations grew to a magnitude which threatens us, we complain and again see ourselves as their victims, and them as terrorists with whom one cannot talk…

Though we tend to put all our 'enemies' in one basket, I want to draw a clear line differentiating between the Hezbollah and the Hamas. The first is a terrorist organization which acts violently against Israel in spite of international law, thereby also endangering the safety of the Lebanese government and people. It is motivated by the regional interests of Iran and Syria and should be taken care of by the international community, as it endangers not only Israel but also the region as a whole. The Israeli government is right in its efforts to weaken this organization and the only open question is if the current military actions in Lebanon will actually contribute to achieving this goal or will actually strengthen the Hezbollah, at least in the eyes of its Arab neighbors.

Unlike the Hezbollah, the Hamas government was elected through democratic elections by the Palestinian people, mainly as a reaction of the latter to the previous corrupt government and less because of its policy toward Israel. In the last months we have seen a bitter struggle within the Hamas, pressured by the Europeans, Abu Mazen, and delegates from Egypt and Jordan, between the moderate part of the Hamas, led by Ismail Haniya, and the military part, led by Haled Mashal. The prisoners’ document that was signed between Marwan Barghouti and the leaders of the Hamas in the Israeli prison could be a basis for a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinian authority. Now we are the ones who refuse to conduct such a dialogue, less out of political wisdom, but out of feeling of superiority and power-orientation. It was our military reaction to the abduction of Gilad Shalit that actually gave strength to the extremists of the Hamas in their struggle with the moderate part, instead of doing the opposite. Where is the logic for this deed?

With the Palestinian people we have to reach a painful but necessary compromise of dividing this land. A compromise can be achieved only through dialogue. We are the only people in the world, ridden by an intractable conflict with another people, who refuse to understand that a compromise will be reached only through an open dialogue. Almost every child in Israel and Palestine knows the nature of this compromise by heart: Return to the borders of 1967, with slight changes, two states with their capitals in Jerusalem, and a systematic step-wise solution to the resettlement of the Palestinian refugees, including Israel’s recognition of its share in the creation of that difficult issue. That was agreed upon in Taba in 2001, was suggested by the Arab League in 2002, and was also the basis for the prisoners’ document. By reaching a compromise, the Palestinians will be pulled out from the threatening balance of power in our region, as they are not an essential part of that balance but rather suffer from it just like us.

It could happen that when the military operation will be over, we will be faced with a Palestinian government that will be ready to enter negotiations with the Israeli government based on this compromise. The question then will be: Is there an Israeli government capable of entering such a process of negotiations? Right now it does not seem that the Israeli government has a mandate to carry out such a compromise with the Palestinian people. By moving out of Lebanon and Gaza, Israel tried to retrieve an internal consensus of righteousness, which was hampered by the long occupation of lands which were not ours in the first place. The fact that Israel returned every inch of these territories, according to international law, made us again rightful, in our own eyes and those of the international community. We loved that feeling so much that we wanted to apply it also to the West Bank, cutting ourselves off behind an 8 meter wall. This was the mandate the Kadima party got from the Israeli people in the last elections. The Prime Minister even proclaimed that when this will be accomplished Israel will be a state in which it will be “fun to live,” perhaps aiming at the full accomplishment of internal consensus and feeling of righteousness, by giving up most of the occupied territories.

However, in this whole 'clean' process someone forgot that there is also another people, with their own needs, pains and feeling of righteousness and powerfulness. In this whole process we played chess with ourselves, without letting the other party have a say, as "there is no one to talk to," and they anyway "understand only force." In that sense the Kassam missiles on Sderot and Ashkelon were unpleasant reminders of another people who suffer and needs a way to express itself. Whoever does not want to talk with them will get missiles and abducted soldiers.

Therefore, my recommendation to the Israeli government, which promised with its inception a new public agenda to a public tired of empty promises, is: Weaken the Hezbollah as much as you can, including by military means if it can serve that goal, but give up the new plan for disengagement that throws sand in our eyes and start talking to the Palestinians on the painful compromise between them and us, a solution both our people need so badly. Remember, a compromise is not based on either absolute righteousness or absolute powerfulness. It is based on compassion: Compassion for the people who suffer, who were killed, compassion for their family members, compassion for a public that is tired of just and successful wars.

Dan Bar-On, Ben Gurion University of the Negev

Dan Bar-On is a Professor of Psychology at the Department of Behavioral Sciences at Ben-Gurion University. He is also the co-director of PRIME (Peace Research Institute in the Middle East) near Beit Jala in the West Bank. He is the author of several books, among others - Legacy of Silence: Encounters with Children of the Third Reich (Harvard University Press, 1989), Fear and Hope: Three Generations of Holocaust Survivors' Families (Harvard University Press, 1998) and The Indescribable and the Undiscussable (Central European University Press, 1999). In 1996 he was awarded the David Lopatie Chair for Post-Holocaust Psychological Studies. In 2001 he received the BundesverdienstKreutz First Class, from German President Dr. Johannes Rau. In 2003 he received the Eric Maria Remarque Peace Prize in Osnabruck, Germany.

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Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000491.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

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Replies: 133 comments

It is a recognized precept that before a person can proceed from the basic needs to the higher needs the most basic needs MUST be obtained. Maslows Hierarchy of needs is the most accepted model.
Beginning with life needs, i.e. oxygen, food and shelter, next comes the security needs. Until the person perceives that they are safe they can not proceed to the next step. This is nothing more than human nature.
Compassion is a much higher human need/goal. However, until those needs lower are met, compassion will always suffer. We don't have to like it or view it as something to be admired. But we do have to accept it.
Until all sides perceive themselves as not being threatened there can never be security and there will never be peace and compassion. Therefore, the only reasonable action is to give the people their perceived security and then move to the higher needs.
To do this those individuals and organizations that threaten security on both sides must be identified and then neutralized. It must be done swiftly, without remorse or passion and must be done in a way that leaves no perception of doubt in the minds of the rest of the population that the threat is ended.
Compassion is a goal that must be attained. But to deny the path to that goal is to deny the basic nature of the human being. Terrorism is nothing less than a cancer. It must be exorcised swiftly, aggressively and completely. The surgeon must then close the wound and begin the patient on recovery therapy. But until the entire cancer is removed the patient will never fully recover...if not eventually die.

Posted by cobaltblu @ 07/20/2006 11:47 PM CST

Subtract Israel from modern history and voila!: We now have a world with no Hamas, no Hezbollah, no war in Iraq, and little or no conflict between U.S. and Syria and Iran. Very likely there is little fuel for the hatred of Osama bin Laden and, hence, there is no 9/11. Millions of people can come out of their graves and hiding places into a much more peaceful world.

Given this alternative reality, one can only conclude that the British Mandate that fulfilled the Zionist's imagined covenant with God to return to the Promised Land of ancient history was the greatest blunder in Human history-- and which acually was the equivalent of sticking a man's head into a hornet's nest. And it was done in the most brutal and uncaring way imaginable.

Modern Israel, no matter how well intentioned, may be the source of World War III.

Posted by David Fredericks @ 07/21/2006 01:22 AM CST

David Fredericks sounds like an Aryan Nations supporter to me.

Posted by left, but not antizionist @ 07/21/2006 11:03 AM CST

Hey let's follow David Frederick's alternate reality even further back.
Let us subtract the Holocaust from history - viola no world support for Israel becoming a state in 1948. But wait, if we subtract the Holocaust, then we need to subtract the country that managed the operation - Germany. Ok now we've wiped out Germany! But wait, some of the European governments were pro-Nazi and there were plenty of European collaborators - ok, let us wipe out Europe too! As an added bonus to wiping out Europe, not only do we get rid of Israel but get rid of the artifical constructs of the modern Arab states, which is causing a lot of the strife between different groups there - and would occur even if there was no Israel.
Oh well, better stop with out alternate history before we continue to wipe everyone out and have a peopleless planet!

Posted by David - USA @ 07/21/2006 01:29 PM CST

David Fredrick's postulation is flawed in one critical element, organisations such as Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda are not the product of Zionism, but the failure of Muslim society to keep pace with the West and the Far East, socially or economically. Whilst a few centuries ago Islam commanded a vast proportion of the world's surface, it has been in steady decline.
Unlike the West, it's primary competitor, Islam has shown itself almost incapable of innovation and evolution. It's sole strength in the last century has been the supply of oil and other minerals, extracted using Western technology and used by the West to produce industrial consumer goods to be sold back to the Muslims. Despite their advanced understanding of mathematics and science in the Middle Ages, the West has completely elcipsed them. Unlike Judaism or Christianity, Islam has appeared to be rigidly attached to social models established during the Arab Conquest. Islam has shown itself to be unreformable and introspective.
It is the view of the radicals that Islam must collectively reassert its control over all lost territories. This means that these people intend to recapture Spain, a NATO member and Sicilly, also part of NATO, large parts of India and other such lands. They proclaim that the current Christian inhabitants must accept Dhimmitude or die.
In light of the NATO treaty, this is a purposeful progression to war against all of Europe and the USA and the Indian nation.
Israel's existance is neither here nor there in relations to the radical Islamic paradigm. It's eradication is merely the first step towards the eventual goal.
For those of you who think that Muslim rule might be survivable, you need to consider that Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Pagans, Animists, Atheists, Homosexuals etc would be killed as a matter of course, which is OK unless you happen to be one of them.
However the first victims would be, and are, Muslims who are daily denied their basic human rights.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/21/2006 04:09 PM CST

The problem with the middle east is an underlying reason. The problem is IGNORANCE AND DISHONESTY. Let me start with the Jews, God does not give land to anyone period. God does not favor anyone period. The Jews are still waiting for there Messiah for 6000 years. Keep waiting. The moslims claim the middle east is their land because a military commander named Mohammed said that he had communication with God through angel Gabriel in a cave. Lie, Lie, Lie. If you as a human do not have common sense and logic then you are not even close to communicating with God, if he does exist. God created the human brain to THINK,and not to just accept things blindly. For both moslims and jews in the world, make sure God is REALLY SPEAKING TO YOU BEFORE YOU ACT because once you die and meet God, you will realize that you never talked to Him or recieved messages from him. God does not play favors, I don't need God to tell me that. It is common sense. If God favors anyone over someone else, then he is not a good God. The Jews must understand that God loves the leader of Hizbullah as much as their president. God loves a prostitute and a serial killer as much as anyone else. So think really deeply before you act because even if Isreal or the Muslims win the war and take over the Middle East, you will ALL DIE one day, and then you will be naked with no land, money, or military in the face of God. You want to lie to yourself and just pretend that you are having faith in the Torah, Koran or the Bible, keep it up. Faith is not just ACCEPTING BLINDLY. Use your brains. Every single true prophet in history claimed direct communication with God, through miracles. And if they were lying, then there is no God, period. Next time you pray, sit there and ask yourself if the invisible air around you is really talking back. When you pray and say something to God, pause and wait for him to REALLY SPEAK BACK TO YOU. Physical communication, not some bullcrap communication through feelings, emotions, or the heart. Wait for REAL communication, just as he did with the prophets. So before you say to yourself that you are free of sin, and that God favors you, make sure that you are really communicating with God, and not just filling your head with lies. Question EVERYTHING. Question, the bible, the koran, evolution, torah. EVERYTHING. Do not just accept something blindly, that is not faith, it is STUPIDITY.

Posted by John @ 07/21/2006 05:32 PM CST

A world without war is not possible. Reason: Some have, some don't. Those who don't, want what those who have, have. Following this? Ok, If everyone had the same, there would be no drive to move, no motivation ...for trade, international communication etc, there would be no interaction between societies period. Without motivation there is no sense of competition. There would be no innovation. War and social struggle is what makes the world change. The rise and fall of nations is what lends us knowledge. We strive to be better than the rest, and in doing so we find ourselves capable of inventing all kinds of crazy $#*&. Sometimes this is a good thing (new medicines and medical procedures)and sometimes not so good (Nuclear weapons). It is a cycle of life we cannot and should not escape. Though it is terrifying it is necessarry. The basic rule to life is, "Survival of the fittest". It doesn't really matter who is right and who is wrong, Israel, Hez or Hamas.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/21/2006 07:52 PM CST

In order to have peace, once has to desire it and wanted it at all cost. Ever since I was born, I have always heard of problems in the Middle East. I am disturbed when some call it a Holy War. God does not wish for anyone to have wars and major conflicts. We only have a few years on this earth, it would be so easy to have peace, but again, one has to sacrifice and humble themselves to obtain it. I don't think most humans can understand humility when they are driven by power and righteousness. I truly believe there will never be peace in the Middle East till all sides begin the process of healing with compassion, humility and empathy. As long as people have anger in their hearts, no peace will ever be achieved. Nothing will ever be achieved with any war, it only results in more casualties, broken families, animosity and long term anger. Peace to all.

Posted by Anna-Maria Tiveron @ 07/22/2006 06:53 AM CST

While I am waiting to be evacuated out of Lebanon, I can not help but think that this world is totally mad. I would like to say that sites such as this, have no meaning and are just a waste of energy. These past 11 days have given a new term to this world that we live in, the term that all should use is "A SATANIC WORLD". Those brave people that write these big speaches and side with the Israeli barbaric and inhumane and immoral action should be gathered up and placed for 5 minutes only in the south of Lebanon or in the north of Israel. Then I would like to see what brave words they write. This world is hell. The situation in Lebanon is hell on earth. If Israel and the US don't stop this action then no doubt the north of Israel will also become hell on earth. So enjoy writting your brave comments and we will keep enjoying the American missles and bombs that target inocent civillians fleeing. We will dance to the vibrations of the homes from the bombs. You enjoy telling yourselves that the Israeli action is justified because 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by people whose land is still being occupied by Israel. People whose land is violated every single day by the Israeli war machine. Fool yourself into believing that the mass murder of the innocent and mass distruction of homes, roads, bridges, factories, power plants and buses as well as the destruction convoys of humanitarian relief will bring Israel peace.

Posted by Mike Jebara @ 07/22/2006 05:40 PM CST

One thing I forgot to mention. I would like to say to those 10 or so Israeli's who were calling for the war to stop, I would like to commend them on the brave stand they took. I would like to tell them that they are in danger just as much all the Lebanese and Palestinians. They should try to flee before the rest of Israel remembers them and eleminate them as traitors of the state of Israel.

Posted by Mike Jebara @ 07/22/2006 05:45 PM CST

The posting by David Fredericks was intellectually lazy. Even the most casual review of Islam shows that after it is done killing all the Jews, the "Kuffar" (non-believers, i.e. the rest of us) are next. Take away the State of Israel and all that would happen is WWIII would have been moved up a few decades. Remember: the Jews are the canaries in the coalmines: when evil is afoot, the Jews are always the first to be targeted. We, that are left, are next in line.

"There is no God called Allah and Mohammed was a pedophile" ~~Osama bin Laden, 9/11/01

Posted by Voice in the Wilderness @ 07/23/2006 02:29 AM CST

I suspect that whether it was Isrealis living in Isreal or another people altogether, that the ownership of righteousness and of victimisation would be preciseley what they would take also, and much else of what Isreal does from the position it is in is much as could be expected of anyone. Now that you have itemised the faults in the participants so clearly and written of those acts that have exacerbated the situation with the brilliance of your 100% hindsight, hows about now providing a solution that takes into consideration the existing nature and situation of those participating - alternativley your plans for changing both sides into ones receptive one for good would also be of interest. Tough isn't it?? I shouldn't be so hard, how many dozens of experts have you seen on the tele speak so eloquently of what has happened in the past only to um and arrgh their way through any answer to do with matters contemparary and future? All of them I should think.

Human nature tends to be much the same wherever you are.I am not clever enough to work out if that information changes the nature of your arguements but you are so you work it out.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/23/2006 05:10 PM CST

If you are not clever enough to work it out, then don't talk. I can work it out. Simple, is God really talking to Hizbollah. No. Is God telling Isreal to destroy Lebanon. No. Is President Bush recieving direct messages from God to go into Iraq. No. Is Osama Bin Laden recieving direct messages to cuase 9-11. No. There it is, worked out. Do not say you are communicating with God, and that you are prefered by him when you are NOT. Now for the people that do not claim to be communicating with God. They don't know. Right? If a human is not communicating with God, then you shouldnt' talk, like yourself mr. Misrahi. What you should be talking about is logic and common sense and ADMITTING WHEN YOU ARE WRONG. I had to admit I was wrong millions of times to become who I am today. Humble. What is Isreal supposed to do? Actually behave in a manner that SHOWS they represent some form of a God loving nation, but of course that will not happen. Your right is is tough, that is why the truth needs to be spoken and when you and other writers are wrong you should just admit it. There isn't much anyone can do to convince Hizbollah and the Isrealis that they aren't really doing what God wants, if God even exists. But I do enjoy displaying all of your stupidity on the internet.

Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 04:40 PM CST

Can anyone tell me what is the difference between the US backing Israel and refusing to call for a cease-fire, and Iran or Syria (as is claimed by Israel) backing Hez and not calling for a cease-fire? Infact, Syria seems willing to actually attempt a diplomatic intervention to bring a cease-fire. What did we (US) do? We asked Hez to stop firing? That just seems like a joke to me. Why would we ask, from the US stand point, the enemy to stop firing first? We have influence in Israel and in the Lebanoneese governments. The government in Lebanon has no control over Hez, the US knows this. We are not making a REAL attempt. The US is only indulging in another propaganda campaign. "Look, we tried to ask them to stop first while dropping bombs on their heads." Come'on Georgey boy, we aren't all as stupid as you. We need to urge Israel to stop, then place multi-national forces along the borders to enforce the cease-fire. That is the only real solution, Koffi Annon knows this, but the US insists on instigating a larger regional war.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/24/2006 06:58 PM CST

Hey John. LOL. You are talking to a confirmed atheist whose first post that was on this site or any other bar a private one that I doubt you are a member of. Still I enjoyed seeing you all whipped up into a self righteous frenzy, I think maybe you got my post and some other guys mixed up. I am saying that what is happening is the kind of misunderstanding typical of human nature.I certainly don't think that either the Israelis or Hizbollah are genetically programmed for evil, do YOU?? They are all just being myth-lead.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 07:19 PM CST

James. What do you make of the fact that Nasrullah has stated that any UN peace keeping force would be treated as invaders by Hezbollah? It seems to me that he is either full of bluster or a very confident man and I have to say that what Hezbollah says it's going to do it generally does do, so Kofi may need a re-think about this. Hezbollah isn't aiming to win any wars with Isreal, it's not that stupid, but it certainly intends to win this battle and to get Lebanese prisoners released. The way that Arab politics in the region works means that any humiliation of Israel is taken as a major victory and a bugle call to the Arab 'street' to front up at the recruitment centres of the Iranian Reich.

The west needs to get clever and sidestep the likes of Amadinajad into oblivion. We need to rapidly wean ourselves off dependance on the only real weapon he has got, our need for oil.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 07:42 PM CST

Then my apologies, Misrahi, becuase we are in complete agreement. I am an agnotstic, but your right, human nature and the other comments I have posted is the cause. Ignorance at its best. I thought you were replying to my message that human nature is the cause for this problem. LOL.

Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 09:12 PM CST

John, I figured that was the case. I should have addressed the post to the guy who wrote the lead article, as I was replying to him. This whole Mid east situation is sure one heck of a fault line running across civilisation, it seems to me that much else that is evil in the world owes it's provenance in some way to this festering sore. I am jewish and have some empathy with israeli's and support their presence as a nation, but I have travelled across that entire region at one time or other and have found little that is inherantly evil in anyone, just a lot of people whose lack of worldliness is like putty in the hands of those that would be king. Religion is just a handy tool being wielded in the cause of personal endeavour e.g. Amadinajad, a mini-me Saladin if I ever I saw one, an old school crusader killer and empire builder. Arabs not signed up to fully Iranian goals in the region ( I.e Total domination) should be worried, not just the West. When Amadinajad gets his missiles he doesn't have to just aim them at Israel, and I would suspect that Saudi, Egypt, the Gulf states etc are extremely aware of that. Education and prosperity are the remedies needed to change the situation across the middle east, as well as a Palestinian acceptance of Israel and a peace settlement that for once is adhered to.

You are right, forget G-d, he's just a tool in this very human of enterprises.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 09:59 PM CST


Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 10:17 PM CST

My point exactly Zed. If the forces deployed to the borders were multi-national, it would be hard for the world community to point the finger at Israel or Hezbollah. If either of them were to attck UN border guards, that group would be subject to a UN police action, which are never pretty. The goal would be to throw water in the pot, to bring Hezbollah's focus off of Israel and Israel's focus off of Hezbollah. This should help prevent further escalation in the region. If either Syria or Iran were to take action against a UN force they will have signed their death warrants. Of course this would only work if Russian troops were to be part of the UN force, else Hez would just point the finger at the US calling us the ring-leaders of a Israeli-European agression.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/24/2006 11:53 PM CST

Very good point Zed. It would be more beneficial to Israel if the US used the billions we send them to pay for teachers, doctors, and schools to be built in Gaza and Lebanon. As the people become educated they will toss aside the ignorance of religion and booga-booga. In the US, though our education system is being threatened now, is what allowed us to excel above racism. I think the south could use another strong dose of edu-ma-cation though, as the bible thumpers are chanting, galssy-eyed along side GW.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/25/2006 01:47 AM CST

To inject a tiny bit of reality into this discussion
1- Israel (and any other STATE) is very careful not to attack Unifil or similar groups (not the same as "police actions" such as Korea.
2- Hezbollah has said they have contempt for Unifil. They attacked international forces in the 80s and forces their withdrawal.
3- IMO an international force will be scared to do anything to Hezbollah because they are not interested in losing soldiers for a country that is not theirs. They would cut and run like the Americans did in the 80s.

Ami I.

Posted by Moderator @ 07/25/2006 12:46 PM CST

James you are right. Take a look at what is happening in states such as Qatar and in Oman where the rulers are beginning to ease there way past the landmine that is ingrained conservatism - religious, cultural - and lead their states toward the 21st century with education and cultural reform. Qatar especially is making strides toward democracy, equality of the sexes, and education that takes in world wide influences and styles. Even that much maligned station Al-Jazeera is influential in changing ingrained attitudes in Arab society through programming that George Bush obviously hasn't yet taken a long hard look at, this despite Al-Jazeera being seen by many in the west as some kind of pro-terrorist propaganda tool. Arab societies have many within them who do realise the need to progress away from the conservative and authoritarian status quo and are quietly working away to affect that change , but in order to speed the process the west needs to start sending far more positive signals rather than acting in ways that further entrench those more conservative forces within Arab society. A good way to do that would be to rapidly wean ourselves off oil dependance so that we stop acting like a sick junkie tramping all over Arabs in order to ensure we can maintain access to our 'FIX'. There you go, Global warming and the Middle east sorted in one easy post. LOL.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/25/2006 01:28 PM CST

These are wise words, but I have to take issue with:-

"We are the only people in the world, ridden by an intractable conflict with another people, who refuse to understand that a compromise will be reached only through an open dialogue."

In fact this is true of every similar struggle. Examples would include the Turks and the Kurds, Russians and Chechens, and formerly Britain and the IRA (I remember a period in during which it was illegal to broadcast the words of the IRA and interviews were dubbed by voiceover actors).

Possibly the difference is that Israelis perceive their victims as part of a larger whole posing an existential threat. After 60 years this has surely been proven an illusion. Better to start dealing in realities.

Posted by Chris @ 07/25/2006 04:55 PM CST

Mike Jabara you know why no one has replied to your statements, because you are telling the truth. No one has the guts to reply to you because they would be lying. I hope that things will get better for you.

Posted by JOHN @ 07/25/2006 05:21 PM CST

A couple of comments on comments:-

"Terrorism is nothing less than a cancer. It must be exorcised swiftly, aggressively and completely. The surgeon must then close the wound and begin the patient on recovery therapy. But until the entire cancer is removed the patient will never fully recover...if not eventually die."

This is argument by false analogy. Terrorism is not a discrete phenomenon which can be surgically removed. It is in most cases a response by the powerless to a situation they regard as intolerable. There can be no "surgeon's knife" where the 'terror' is bedded in national aspirations, counter-terror will only spawn further trauma and further hatred. In any event, Israel's destruction of Lebanon is less a knife than a bludgeon.

Incidentally, I'm unsure how bombing Lebanese civilians and infrastructure to teach them a lesson for allowing Hezbollah to operate in their country can be classed any differently from putting a bomb on a Tel Aviv bus. Both are the use of terror for political ends, pure and simple.

"Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda are not the product of Zionism, but the failure of Muslim society to keep pace with the West and the Far East, socially or economically."

This is argument by half-truth. Hezbollah and Hamas have clearly grown up in direct response to Zionism, whether the Israeli occupation of Lebanon or the Territories. And Israel had just as many issues with the secular nationalists of the PLO. Islamic fundamentalism generally may well have a different dynamic, but you cannot regard the different strands as homogenous.

Sub-Saharan Africa and much of Latin America (overwhelmingly Christian) have similarly failed to keep pace with "The West" so the economic problems of those countries with Muslim majorities probably have less to do with Islam as a system of thought than with the after-effects of colonialism.

Conflating all of Islam with Al-Qaeda is also pretty shoddy thinking. There are Muslim majority societies from Turkey to Indonesia. They are all very different. All religions are inherently stupid and as Houllebecq suggested, Islam may well be the stupidest, but I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day.

Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 05:37 PM CST

and a moderate Jew or christian over a fundamentalist muslim, spike? How does that hang with you??

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/25/2006 05:41 PM CST

just thought I would post this for those interested... http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=540825...I know some of this appears to be conspiracy theorist like, but if you ignore the opinions in the article, the message holds true. The "Clean Break" document has been referenced many times by other news sources I have read over the past 5 years. Also earlier this year the US media reported numerous times a quote by one of our Generals, whom I'll try to locate an article on later for posting, Who stated Cheney intended to involve the US in a war with Iran in July. Though this is not the most direct route to accomplish those goals it can get us to the same destination just the same. If you visit the PNAC website you can read an open letter to President Clinton regarding the Clean Break plan, urging Clinton to "preemptively" attack Iraq. This was meant to be just the begining. Judging by the actions of the US (pretending to mediate a cease-fire, but putting no pressure on Israel to do so), I would say our plan is right on schedule. It's scarry when 60% of the individuals involved in devising a plan to dominate a region are now in the most key positions of your government, perfect position to implement their plans, and they have GW as the patsy. They have openly lied to the US people and the world on many, many ocassions to meet these goals. When we the people of the US ask for explanations for these lies, our justice department and congress is barred from investigating by the signature of GW time and time again. If that's not effectivly a Tyrant, then I don't know what is. Our congressmen, in particualr Charles B. Rangle, have recently been trying to slip reinstatement of the draft into bills, so far without success. Don't expect a long term resolution to this situation anytime soon.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/25/2006 07:07 PM CST


I would have thought the answer to that was obvious from my comment. Read it again and if you're still confused, let me know why.

Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 11:35 PM CST

I didn't dare think that Muslims, in your opinion, are considered so stupid that even a moderate jew or christian was significantly more to worry about, or am i still getting that wrong? You do seem terribly absolute in your conclusion, and somewhat at odds with what I consider to be a very high degree of intelligence amongst even the worst murderers of Islamonazi persuasion. AS Jesus is reported to have said on the cross, "Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do". Well, you don't have to be entirely daft to be a fundamentlist Muslim just blind to the power of your intellect and the self deciet that allow3s you to kill on a matter of principal, and without qualm, in fact it seems to be a positive advantage to have great intelligence if radical islam is your bag and you wish to succeed in its hierachy and the prosecution of its militant aims. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted but I see little else to modify my view of your suggestion, other than the fact that just maybe you are totally opposed to Jews and Christians in any shape or form, but that would be taking your point too far, wouldn't it??

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 12:55 AM CST

Israel just attacked a UNIFIL observation facility and killed 4 UN personel. Using Israeli logic (Kidnap 2 soldiers they bomb your entire country)would it be proper to nuke Tel Aviv?

Posted by OMFG @ 07/26/2006 02:39 AM CST

Spike, it is not Christians, Jews or Muslims that is the problem. Religion in and of itself is not the problem. Religion is just a tool used by the privilaged or extremeists to ralley the impoverished. Look at history, it happens everytime a social group becomes impoverished or opressed, they turn to religion. Religion is an abstract source of structure when their world has become chaotic. The real battle here is between the imperialists, weather they be Iranian, Israeli(Likud to be more precise), Syrian, American, etc. the people of these nations are nothing more than pawns being wittled away to further the objectives of those who are in power. All these countries, and most in the world are under the control of tyrants. George boy has his southern bible-belt (alot of us out of jobs or just living in uncertinty after 9/11), The Likud has thei Zionists, Iran Shiites,....If we want out of this mess we have to do like we did in the old days. Pick up the pitch forks and torches. Anyone ever seen Fight Club?

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/26/2006 02:51 AM CST

Well said, Dan.

Posted by Lisa @ 07/26/2006 11:00 AM CST

James, I didn't say religion was "the problem". I said religion was stupid. I agree that this is a conflict between imperialists. However I think religious fundamentalism also has to be fought on an ideological level as it is a major channel of false consciousness.

Zed, I'm a little confused by your response. My point was that there are extremists in every religion and that moderates are preferable to fundamentalists (reason being preferable to slavish adherence to old tribal texts). I was responding to a comment that Islam was uniquely fundamentalist.

Political Islam is a menace, no question, but religious intolerance and violence are not unique to Islam. (Baruch Goldstein et al and the people who bomb abortion clinics and try and ban Darwinism in schools spring to mind; there are also some seriously nasty Hindu fundamentalists in India). Suggesting
that these problems are uniquely inherent in Islam is plain stupid as well as chauvinistic.

Posted by Spike @ 07/26/2006 12:35 PM CST

Spike I agree with most of what you typed about religion fundamentalists, I do believe the underlying reason of religion fundamentalists is human nature's ignorance and dishonesty, but to just give a quick point on Darwiniasm, I have studied that and the idea of evolution for 5 years, and the facts are that it is just another faith, like other faiths. It is however a preferable faith because usually the lack of an existence in a God does not force people to command other people on what God wants or doesnt' want. But, in the true search of human origins, evolution does not provide answers. Mainly macro-evoltuion. But, I do enjoy your very very smart comments that you have made about the middle east conflict. What you and Mr. Misrahi state is what the world needs more of for world peace. Unfortunately, to intellectually think and be honest requires a very low level of laziness, therefore, most humans are lazy so they will not spend any effort on thinking and being honest. In conculsion, people like you and Misrahi, are small in number, so there will NEVER BE WORLD PEACE, unless every human uses logic before they act, and that is impossible because as both of you and I have made mistakes in the past it is impossible to act perfectly all the time. So, the only thing left in this world is to think about where we came from. If every human being can begin that quest and ask questions to figure out human origins, then problems such as territory disputes, money, power, and other things become insignificant. That is the only way to have world peace. Make people think, and think, and think. I am pessimistic about that though, which is why I conclude that in my opinion there will never be world peace.

Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 04:56 PM CST

I have to make a correction to what I wrote, since Israel did attack UNIFIL - by accident apparently. Koffi Annan immediately and without checking issued a statement saying it was done on purpose. Never say "never" about anything in history. It was plainly a stupid move by IDF that resulted from carelessness. An Israeli helicopter also shot down another helicopter apparently - but nobody will claim that was done on purpose.

The logic of "no Israel, no problem" is born of total ignorance or total vicious depravity or both. It is like saying that if there were no Jews, there would have been no Nazi Germany. In both cases it is a clear historical falsehood. Iranians are mad at US and Britain for ousting Mossadegh. Jihadists in general are mad at Western society for being successful and tempting their followers away to a freer life. If you have 3 wives and a few concubines, all of whom obey or else, you don't want anyone filling their heads with sinful ideas like women's equality. Everyone in the Middle East who is poor is angry at the West for being rich. All these grievances, legitimate or otherwise, are fed upon by Islamist extremists.

Likewise the idea that Israel would not exist but for the Holocaust is at best dubious. Without the Holocaust, there would have been a lot more Jews in Palestine. Does anyone think they would have sat still if an Arab state had been declared in all of Palestine, after the Zionists had invested so much in developing it? Remember - the Mandate for a Jewish national home in Palestine was given in 1922. Nobody knew about any Holocaust then.

I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day. However right now, there are no Jews or Christians exploding themselves in Muslim public places or subways, and no Jews crashing airliners into buildings. More fuss is made about 350 Lebanese casualties caused by Israel than was made about a Million casualties of the Iran-Iraqi war, which was fought because of a bogus claim by Iraq.

The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible.

Ami Isseroff

Posted by Moderator @ 07/26/2006 05:07 PM CST

"I would take a moderate Muslim over a fundamentalist Jew or Christian any day. However right now, there are no Jews or Christians exploding themselves in Muslim public places or subways, and no Jews crashing airliners into buildings. More fuss is made about 350 Lebanese casualties caused by Israel than was made about a Million casualties of the Iran-Iraqi war, which was fought because of a bogus claim by Iraq."


The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible.



Posted by John @ 07/26/2006 06:01 PM CST

Hey John! Most retarded people have an intellect that is slightly above that of a primate. The biggest conflicts they have is over a candy-bar or blankey. They usually end in someone getting smacked, or crapping their pants and running away crying. Don't insult monkey intellect!

Posted by OMFG @ 07/26/2006 07:29 PM CST

I stumbled onto this discussion while looking for a map of Israel and Lebanon. I read through the comments with some interest, some disbelief, and some disgust. Anyone who can give credence to a fanatic who will strap explosives to their own body and go out and kill children is never going to be able to sit down and come up with a cool and logical solution to ANY problem.

First of all, the United States is not the reason/cause of all the problems in the Middle East. People in that region have been killing each other for thousands of years…the US has only been in existence for a little over 200.

The root cause of the problem is simply hatred and intolerance. When children are brought up to hate other human beings, is it any wonder that there is never any peace? Look at the comments in this discussion. There is intolerance of God, Israel, the US, people who live in the south, and Christians; the message is to blame every one but the idiots who tunneled into Israel and kidnapped soldiers to hold for ransom.

A couple of specific responses:

Mike Jebara, Hezbollah is hiding in the civilian population and firing rockets into Israel from private homes. They are riding in ambulances marked with red crosses to move around from one place to another. The US isn’t firing missiles into Lebanon and targeting civilians. Why aren’t you upset at the reports that the first missiles from Lebanon were fired with the help of the Iranians? Why aren’t you upset that Israeli civilians are receiving hundreds of rocket attacks?

Spike, Hezbollah and all the others have sprung up from hatred regardless of how you try to justify it.

And finally to John - Jumping up and down, shouting, and putting people down who don’t agree with you is not a sign of intelligence and cool thinking. You sir, are a moron.

Posted by David A @ 07/26/2006 08:02 PM CST

Spike, Worry no longer. I re-read what I wrote and I must have been asleep at the time.

John. You are the funniest moron I have ever come across. Your belief in yourself is extremely endearing; your idea of intellect is probably something to do with volume control, but none the less you make me laugh. Thank G-d they don't issue missiles in mental homes or we'd all be running for cover from you. ?;o)

Cheers Mate.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 09:19 PM CST

I'm glad people insult with no backing up of the actual ideas i have presented. See every time i insult one of you, I back it up, with logical support, but when you do you back it with,ummmmmm,oh, nothing, or just because. The real moron is the one who doesn't support their ideas. So keep pretending you are intellectuals, just like the smart people in the middle east that keep fighting. I may sound full of myself, but I am willing to change my mind to any, any, alternative thought, but none of you have the courage to type anything worth discussing. The moment I counter with a logical response that uses PROOF you run. So the challenge still remains. I challenge any of you to an intellecual honest debate, then you will see that you are just AFRAID OF BEING WRONG. JUST LIKE ISREAL, JUST LIKE HIZBOLAH, AND OTHERS.

Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 09:32 PM CST

Misrahi, your quote, "Your belief in yourself is extremely endearing; your idea of intellect is probably something to do with volume control"

LOL, can you honestly tell me that your belief in yourself is extremely NOT endearing. What is your definition of intellect? Common please give me a definition. By the way you forgot to type "o" in the word God. Moron.

Posted by JOHN @ 07/26/2006 09:56 PM CST

You see John, the problem is that the presentation of your arguements is noticeably youthful, interesting and amusing, but extremely youthful. If you are over 19 or 20 though then I'll revert to the moronic tag. I've blotted my own copy book now by taking a time out to swap insults but prehaps you might take a few lessons in debating some time, you'll find that acknowledging the presence of others without first insulting them is a fairly good start to the process.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 10:03 PM CST

It occurs to me that in this case a reasonable explanation of the word Intellect is that it is by definition, that which does not need to be explained to one who posesses it.

I most certainly did leave out the O in G-d. Have you yet to work out why I always do that or are you merely being facetious? LOL. Seek and ye shall find, Dooohh, no, not gold you fool; the answer as to why.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/26/2006 10:11 PM CST

To David, Do you agree with what Hizbolah is doing???? Well based on your response, I shouldn't disagree with people right?

And finally to John - Jumping up and down, shouting, and putting people down who don’t agree with you is not a sign of intelligence and cool thinking. You sir, are a moron.

So, David, would you not insult the intelligence of the Hizbolah leader???? Hypocrite, you already have,"who can give credence to a fanatic who will strap explosives to their own body and go out and kill children is never going to be able to sit down and come up with a cool and logical solution to ANY problem."


Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 10:16 PM CST

SEEK, AND YOU SHALL FIND, WOW. VERY GOOD. Now what do you want me to
seek, God, the merciful,and loving, or G-d, the intolarable, ashole
that is mad because you will not type the letter 'o'.
And for your comment on intelligence. "a reasonable explanation of the
word Intellect is that it is by definition, that which does not need to
be explained to one who posesses it.


now, lets get to bussiness, you lie. You like to change your stories.
That is an action of a 15 year old. So, if I am insulting you, then
good, that makes me laugh, and if I am not insulting you , then I don't
give a ****, because I dont even know you.


Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 11:57 PM CST

By your self labelling as Agnostic I thought that you couldn't know if there was a G-d, or at least very sceptical about the possibility, so why bother suggesting that It has characteristics unless you are in fact a believer in its existance. I don't believe in a G-d at all, but I am superstitious, hence an adherance to a foolish piece of Jewish frippery - the incomplete name, sans vowels.
You have issues best dealt with by professionals.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/27/2006 12:14 AM CST

ohh, finally asking a good question, very good. I will help you, the reason i bother suggesting God might have characteristics is based on logic. For example, I will give you a little preview. Love exists in every human being, now IF there is a creator, and he created humanity, then what follows logically is that he created LOVE because love exists. So God who created love cannot be anything lower than the love displayed by for example Mother Teresa. Because it is impossible for a God to create a human being that had more love than the creator. So the logical conclusion is that if God does exist he must be soo much love. Therefore, the fact that I can deduce this information from the logic that I have presented does not necessarily mean that all of a sudden God does exist. So you see, it is amazing what a human can think of when they actually think about the God that they DO BELIEVE IN.

Now that you have admitted that you are superstitious, then I do believe you have shown who really needs proffesional help. LOL.

Posted by JOHN @ 07/27/2006 12:35 AM CST

John, I've tried to figure out exactly what you were trying to say to me but I've given up. If anything, you have proven my point that someone with a radical mind is not generally capable of rational discussion, all you can do is rage, scream, and hurl insults. All I can say that your reaction to my comment must mean that I nailed you cold.

Posted by David A @ 07/27/2006 02:13 AM CST

JOHN I AM NOT!! WRONG!!.........retarded people DO crap their pants and run away crying...sometimes they like to roll in it first..though..=/

Posted by OMFG @ 07/27/2006 03:27 AM CST

Wow, with all the crying, name calling, and ego bashing...I have only one question.....ummmmmmm...what were we talking about?

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/27/2006 04:06 AM CST

to david,
The root cause of the problem of hatred and intolerence is STUPIDITY ALSO. STUPIDITY IS CAUSED BY BEING TOO LAZY TO THINK. So David, since you did not understand my last posting, I will try to break it down in a 7 year old language. First are you that ignorant of history to make a statement that people are killing each other for thousands of years in the middle east. Are you not aware of WW1 and WW2 and the Civil war in the US, and the independence war against Britian, and many more examples that did not occur in the middle east. Listen I can almost tell just by your name David that you probably are some christian fanatical who will side with Isreal nomatter what, true? Oh well doesnt matter, now back to your history lesson. The root cause sir of conflict is stupidity (lack of thinking), not only geographic. Where you are on Earth does not make you feel like fighting more or less, idiot. I wonder David, what would make children of the Arab world hate Isreal more???? The fact their parents teach them that, OR ALL THE AGGRESSION AND BOMBS AND MASS MURDERING OF CIVILIANS THAT THE CHILDREN SEE FOR THEMSELVES ON TV. Even if parents do teach their kids things that you do not agree with, I have witnessed many, many, many families around the world that teach kids things I don't agree with. For example to just give you a small example. "Son Accept Jesus as you Saviour", the kid says "why mommy?" "Just because he came a long long time and he said he was God and that he loves you", "but mommy I never met him or seen him, how can I just accept him as being God.". " Son just accept it, then you are saved and you are free of sin, and you will not go to hell"

Sound familiar jackass, sorry david. Listen parents sometimes are dumber than their children, but that does not only exist in the middle east you racist pig.

Posted by john @ 07/27/2006 03:41 PM CST

Uh-huh, When all else fails the feeble minded throw everything they have rolling around in their cranium at you, even if the thoughts have no inter-linking themes or logical connection. Wnat to fight me for my candy bar or blankey john?

Posted by OMFG @ 07/27/2006 04:44 PM CST

Ami: "The reason for the Israeli attack is not kidnapping or killing of soldiers, but the existence of an organization, Hezbollah, which announced its intention of wiping out Israel, and which has 11,000 missiles. Timely enforcement of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 would have prevented this problem, and timely enforcement now would stop the violence. Hezbollah does not allow it. Therefore Hezbollah must be stopped by any means possible."

Deeply ironic given that Israel has repeatedly ignored UN resolutions. Had Israelis pushed their own government to comply with some of those we might not have the current mess.

Rather than bigging up Hezbollah, which is evidently in no position to destroy anything bigger than a few apartment blocks, I would have thought the job of Israeli 'peaceniks' at present would be to tell their government as loudly as possible to stop destroying the Lebanon. Gush Shalom at least understand this. Frankly I expected better from these parts.

Posted by Spike @ 07/27/2006 06:02 PM CST

And another thing.....

.....My understanding, and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, is that Hezbollah did not fire any serious missiles into Israel until the Israelis started bombing Lebanon. I heard that they lobbed a few short-range mortars as a diversionary tactic when they kidnapped the IDF troops, slightly injuring 4 Israelis, but that was all.

If those are the facts, and I accentuate the "if", why is there a need to launch such a massive attack on Hezbollah? Clearly they're a nasty group politically, and I can see why having them on the border would make Israel anxious, but does the level of threat justify Israel's actions? Were the 11,000 missiles not primarily intended as a deterrent? It looks to me like further unnecessary humiliation of Israel's Arab neighbours, and therefore storing up yet more trouble for the future.

Unless, as some have posited, this has to do with US plans to attack Iran and removing Hezbollah from the equation is part of clearing the way for that.

Either way, this looks like a war of choice, not of necessity.

Posted by Spike @ 07/27/2006 06:17 PM CST

And now Al-Qaeda is added to the mix..(I wonder, did we, U.S.A., ever decommission them?) Anyhow, just as in Iraq, with a constant struggle against a "terrorist" cell..there will be no end in sight for the conflict. Well like Georgey said...we will take the fight to them. Looks like we're going to Lebanon boys. Next stop Iran. Because we all know...as Rummey tells it, that's where Osama is. What a bait and switch game this is turning out to be. Don't be suprised if the conflict spreads to Syria..and like magic...Al-Queda and Osama decide to set up shop there too. I hope I can travel around with ease like that if I am ever in need of Dialisis treatments. That guy is the healthiest dieing man...ever! In reality I think we know people have caught on to that game and we will most likely come up with another ficticious Al-Qaeda general in Lebanon..his name will be something like Abu Marsief Al-Zarwini or something ..we like the Zar prefix in the last name ..makes it sound more ominous.

Posted by James Sutter @ 07/27/2006 07:06 PM CST

By the way David, about my insults. I would never ever insult Mother
Teresa, or Ghandi, or other certain individuals. So if I insult you it
is because you deserve it. I get insulted, it doesn't matter, the form
of communication on the internet isn't that personal. I certainly do
not talk to people like this in the outside world. But if you haven't
figured that out yet, then that shows your stupidity that I have been
talking about all along. LOL.

Posted by john @ 07/27/2006 08:40 PM CST

John, thank you for being the perfect example of what my original thoughts were. I don't think anyone could follow your line of reasoning whether they were 7 or 77.

If you cannot let others express viewpoints that may be different than yours without spewing all the wild rhetoric, then why participate in an open forum for ideas?

My whole point was that you can't sit down and try to negotiate anything with someone who would rather kill you than work things out.

For the record, I am a Christian who lives in Texas, believes that George Bush is doing what he can to keep terrorist off the street in my home town, and believes that Israel has every right to defend itself against a terrorist group who wants to kill every Jew that breathes. If you believe different than me, then that's ok. If you want to spew, I don't care. I would rather converse on an adult level. Let me leave you with one thought though, and think about this carefully. If you were to invade my home to kidnap someone in my family the way that Hezbolla invaded Israel and kidnapped those soldiers, I would give you a definition of "defending my turf" that even you could understand.

Posted by DAvid A @ 07/28/2006 02:35 AM CST

It's ok David, I believe in fairies and Jesus horses too. I just love the way Zeenu wears it's hair. Texan's, Christian's, and George Dubbya..now there's a combo to make anyone know the glory that is Retardation.

Posted by OMFG @ 07/28/2006 03:31 AM CST

"believes that George Bush is doing what he can to keep terrorist off the street in my home town"


I guess he's keeping those pesky reds from under your bed too?

For the record, Hezbollah only got set up in the first place because Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. So your 'defence of the homeland' analogy works both ways (in fact rather more persuasively in the other direction). If people like you had been born Lebanese you'd be first in the queue to join.

Posted by Spike @ 07/28/2006 02:23 PM CST


"I am a Christian who lives in Texas"

"If you were to invade my home to kidnap someone in my family the way
that Hezbolla invaded Israel and kidnapped those soldiers, I would give
you a definition of "defending my turf" that even you could understand."




Posted by john @ 07/28/2006 04:29 PM CST

"My whole point was that you can't sit down and try to negotiate anything with someone who would rather kill you than work things out."


4. St. Anthony--- by the way he is from the middle east.




Posted by JOHN @ 07/28/2006 05:08 PM CST

Dont seem to be any comments from Women here why is that I wonder?
Come on guys there are faults on both sides. Maybe if woman led the negotiations with out babies around us as the constant reminder of what is really important in this world. We must learn to live together and respect each others differences and realise that every culture has a lot to offer and we can learn from them.

Posted by Nami @ 07/29/2006 12:22 AM CST

Nice sentiment Nami, but women can't even get along with one another for longer than it takes to discuss a dress. An honest woman will admit as much. It is not a male driven war. It is not a religious war. It is a war against an oppressor. Israel does not feel they need to negotiate with those that are obviously weaker. Morals are not a consideration. Israel is more powerfull militarily. Israel neglects to realize though that with every bomb they create more enemies. They cannot destroy the world. Eventually that kind of short sightedness will lead to their own demise. They don't realize they are making enemies of their allies. They will slowly rott unless they change their reactionary methods.

Posted by OMFG @ 07/29/2006 01:20 AM CST

John, I was wrong. You are not a moron. You're just an anonimous, pitiful loud mouth who sits behind a keyboard. I won't engage you on your points of Christianity because you know nothing about it. I find it amazing that the whole of Islam got radical because of a cartoon, yet you can spew filth abot God and Jesus with impunity...for now anyway. Don't mistake the tolerance of a Christian for weakness, you may be surprised.

You can spend all night responding to this, but be aware that I probably won't be back. My original point of intolerance and hatred has been proven many times in this...what would you call this? It's not a discussion.

Posted by DavidA @ 07/29/2006 01:21 AM CST

OMFG ( i can guess what it means. LOL) Maybe the women you know are the ones you have trained to remain totally obediate to your wallet. Whatever differences women find they have between them they are able to reach a practical solution to most arguements without reaching into their pants to compare missiles.

John. You are sick, and you know it too don't you!! This and other forums are I suspect the only places where anyone will even give your messianic centre of the universe drivel a minute of their time. Seek help now John, you need it. Your skin will look better, the bags under your eyes will go away, you will have more energy and your sheets will not need washing as often as they do currently. Prehaps it's just a case of growing up, but I think your problem is deeper than just hormones.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/29/2006 02:33 PM CST

Just reading the posts on here it is not hard to understand how things got to be the way they are. But I am sick to death with both "sides." The history of antagonizing relationships between one mode of thinking and another, and figuring out where the "fault" lies is like arguing which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Let's argue about it.
The chicken came first, as it was needed to lay the egg.
No, no no, the egg came first as it was needed to hatch the chicken.
No, Egg.
No, Chicken came first you ignorant "_."
No, Egg came first you uneducated "
The situation in Middle east, although much more serious, is as unlikely to be resolved to the satisfaction of EITHER side, making a solution near impossible.

So what will happen? Will both sides just keep hammering at one another until one side or another says "UNCLE?"

I feel for the common citizen, the people that care less about which came first, the chicken or the egg, and just want to be able to live their lives with their families in peace.

For those of you with real opinions as to which came first, chicken or the egg, please refer to the beginning of this post.

Posted by Kimberly @ 07/29/2006 04:04 PM CST

Hi Kimberly.

Having now had the bleeding obvious pointed out to us - that we are pointing out the bleeding obvious to each other without seeking any real solutions - what's your contribution to the debate with regard to a solving the situation in the middle east so that your feelings for the common man can be normalised to ignorance of them, because they are no longer in the news dying?

By the way, neither chicken nor egg came first, what came first was the desire for an omellette, no the desire for chicken chasseur, no, omellette, no, Chasseur.....oh fudge.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/29/2006 04:46 PM CST

I hope by the way our Jewish brothers are going about the whole thing they do not further ammunition to those who keep asking that question: Was Adolf Hitler right with the Jews?

Posted by Magaji Abdulrazaq @ 07/29/2006 10:21 PM CST

Hi Magaji.

I thought the question for our Muslim brothers ( those that actually can be bothered; not all or even close to a majority I would suggest) is why the f*** didn't Hitler finish the job, I.e the president of a soveriegn state called Iran, a country that is much maligned due to the fact that its perfectly intelligent and pleasant populace is being led to infamy by a coterie of whacko muppetts high on revolutionary zeal and enjoying very much indeed, thankyou, their brief flirtation with absolute power. A flirtation that has so enamoured them of it that they are trying to export an empire of ultra conservative sharia piety across the Arabic world, let alone destroy the evil zionist bar stewards that have blighted their existance since the jewish 7th century dismissal of Mohammed's plaguerism and his macho insistance that his version of Judaic thought be seen as the only religion in town. It is no coincidence that the flowering of islamic culture took place some distance from Mecca or Medina. Now even Iran, that bastion of individual thought and lack of Arabic wahabist conformity to the arid literalcy of Koranic and hadithic, moral and cultural imperatives, is in thrall to a few cranks for whom dialogue within Islamic society is apostasy and to whom totalitarian, authoritarian monologue is all. Thank G-d that beneath the corruption that is the Islamic state of Iran there beat hearts of pure non conformity, except amongst those that benefit from the status quo. The Shia Reich of Amadinajad, may find fuel in Israel, but that mini-me Saladin had better look over his shoulder because shortly he will find his 'people ' are coming to get him and his fascist cronies.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 12:04 AM CST

Zed Misrahi, I like you, you are funny. lol. I will take your advice
and seek professional help. I am not sure though, I am debating wether
to meet with Sheik Nasrala the Hizbollah leader, President Bush, or the
Prime Minister of Isreal. I think my problem of stupidity can be fixed
by one of these great intellectuals of all time. LOL.
I forgot to mention Ariel Sharon. I could seek him. I think he can
help me the most. LOL.
Zed, I seriously do like you, you are funny, you have a new fan.
I like the entertainment.
Zed why have you resulted to pure insults, lol.
Zed I throw insults with logic to worsen the insults, however your insults are not backed up by anything. Insults without any evidence or support or logic behind them are not insults. lol, but they are emusing.
Zed, I bet you love CNN and Fox News, because their reporters sound like you.
Zed did you read my characteristic of God, oops, G-d, no, ummm, god, no wrong again, GOD, GoD, Allah, Yahweh, lol, no wait I am sick, I know, I know, I am sick, but you are a joke.

Posted by johnn @ 07/30/2006 02:38 AM CST

I always did wonder why Hitler hated Jews. LOL. Zed maybe if all the jews died in WW2 the world would be a quiter place. The high decibel level of their crying is deafening. See if Jews where smart then there wouldn't be a faith called Judaism, because they would have accepted Jesus. Intellectually speaking Jesus does sound like a God to me, one worth of a little respect. Notice the United States Constitution is based on Christianity, not the Jewish Faith. Yes, i know, enough talk about religion. Thats right, all the religious people that go to church, temples and Mosks are very smart and NOT SICK.

Posted by john @ 07/30/2006 03:37 AM CST

Sheesh John, its like watching a pinball machine write a novel; you bounce off more references than a mosquito on an ordinance map, looking for Synapse city. You are the punk version of The Glass Bead Game, The Magester Ludi-crous, Goldmund gone ferral on crystal Meth. If it weren't for the fact that you are just a rogue impulse looking for a life I'd take you seriously.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 01:55 PM CST

Is this current crisis a repeat of the 1982 attack of the Israelis attack on Lebanon? Is this the beginning of WW3. What about the sleeping cells in the USA, is their fear of racial profilling and internal political wars within the U.S.?

Posted by brickhouse @ 07/30/2006 09:46 PM CST

No wonder there are wars in this world. Just reading some of your posts shows and reflects the anger people have towards each other. Peace starts with each and one of us. However, some are too cemented in their ideals and opinions that they are blinded by their selfish hearts. No need to respond with unrespectfull remarks, I won't be checking in anymore. Peace to all.

Posted by Anna-Maria Lahire @ 07/30/2006 09:57 PM CST

Another comment from another Texan who happens to be a Christian, who also happens to be a woman. I did not vote for George Bush nor do I support the war he began in Iraq. While I was raised a Christian, I differ from most because I believe in everyone's right to believe in whatever God that they were taught to believe in or whom they may come to believe in. There IS room for many Gods and not a single one of us has any right whatsoever to feel that only his or her individual God is the only right and valid God and should be the same for every people. However, I don't feel that the wars going on now are about someone being pissed off about God. The wars are about oil, domination, and greed and as someone previously stated, the ignorant and downtrodden are whipped into a frenzy through many means, one being the use of religion, to persuade them to fight to fill someone else's greedy pocket or deranged fanatical mind. With women in a more powerful position, we MIGHT have a chance to bring about a reasonable resolution because from childhood, we are taught to nurture, to get along, to iron out our differences because we know we have to get along in order to survive. As we all know, men are only interested in determining who has the largest penis. Women don't give a damn. We just want to go home at the end of the day and know that everyone is safe in their beds and that there is food in the cupboard for tomorrow. If it boils to the point that a woman has to bitchslap someone down to the ground in order to make folks behave, so be it. Drop a bomb on the troublemakers, both sides if need be, and sort it out tomorrow. Those who cannot play well with others will be removed from the game and forced to stand in a corner until they learn to play right or until hell freezes over. But alas, men rule the world at this time and have never been known to compromise in the heat of battle. So here we are, stuck in the midst of watching yet another senseless battle, knowing that women in Lebanon and Israel are going to see another night of not being able to sleep and mourning the loss of families and friends. My sympathy and heart goes out to those who are the victims of the men determined to wage wars. Blood and tears are not unique to any one religion and never will be.

Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 01:05 AM CST

Ras: "the ignorant and downtrodden are whipped into a frenzy through many means, one being the use of religion, to persuade them to fight to fill someone else's greedy pocket or deranged fanatical mind."

As long as you accept that this process is going on in Texas also I am with you on this.

I'm a little sceptical about the idea that girl power is the route to non-violent conflict resolution though. Margaret Thatcher certainly didn't take that approach to the Falklands crisis, and neither Golda Meir nor Indira Gandhi were exactly beacons of benign femininity. I suspect the issue is about power rather than gender.

Regarding chickens and eggs, the answer in this instance is for everyone to leave the kitchen, or at least put down their knives. The fact that the Bush Administration is giving one side permission to turn the heat up is the most immediate problem here. Don't Americans feel that Arabs and Muslims hate them enough already, without providing more reasons? Contact your congressman, demand they push for an immediate unconditional ceasefure NOW. Simple as that.

Posted by Chris @ 07/31/2006 01:20 PM CST

To Ras,

Your comments first:

"I differ from most because I believe in everyone's right to believe in whatever God that they were taught to believe in or whom they may come to believe in. There IS room for many Gods and not a single one of us has any right whatsoever to feel that only his or her individual God is the only right and valid God and should be the same for every people. However, I don't feel that the wars going on now are about someone being pissed off about God. "

The problem with the idea of God is not so much God's existence, or lack of existence, or the existence of many Gods. The problem is indirectly related to religion and God. What I am trying to say, is that the fact that you or any human being "believes" in a God or Gods without proof, is the ignorance and stupidity displayed by mankind that leads to war and fighting. Human beings lack of ability to think logically and carefully about the nature of who they are and what they want in life is the cause of wars. I will give you an example regarding yourself. You say that everyone has the right to believe in many Gods or whatever god they might choose. That is not ok, because then you are giving credibility for individuals to say that God told me this land is mine (ex. Isreal). Another problem is that of Communism where there is no God, and then humans are the gods. Instead of every human having the right to believe whatever they want, every human should use the correct meaning of belief. Another example, I do BELIEVE that my father and mother would help me in case of a crisis. That is the true definition of the word "believe". The fact that I know that my mother and father would help me because they love me is a fact. The word "believe" has been screwed up over history to almost equal the word "opinion". To believe in today's world is an opinion. Now everybody has the right to an opinion, but that opinion is just that, it is only a hypothesis. When a human does not think of their opinions, for example the God or lack of God, then those opinions become reality. When a human is not honest to themselves these lies and opinions become real. I can state many more examples. The three main religions of Islam, Christianity, and the Jewish faith, all profess that they believe in the same God. Now how come a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew does not think about WHY there is ONE God between all three, but three different religions. Did God decide to teach humanity three different religions and confuse humanity, and then He decides to just watch and laugh his ass off, or is the problem with humans themselves. The real problem is what you have stated. The fact that every human decides to just BLINDLY believe and accept things as true because they are too lazy to think about tough issues is what leads humans to believe in crap. I highly doubt that God wished there to be 3 main religions when they are soo different. That leads to confusion and dissagreements. Another example is the Shiite and the Suni sections of Islam, they disagree not because God said this or that, they disagree because again humans accept blindly. Another example is the thousands of denominations of Christianity. Again, what did Jesus really say? Well according to every Christian I met, Jesus said exactly what these Christians want Jesus to say. In other words, humans just place God in their pocket and say that they know exactly what God wants. So, do humans have the right to believe whatever form of God that they do want, the answer is HELL NO. THE FACT THAT I CAN SAY THAT GOD TOLD ME TO GO KILL SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY ARE EVIL, IS NOT A RIGHT. THE FACT THAT A JEWISH PERSON CAN SAY THIS IS MY LAND BECAUSE GOD SAID SO, IS NOT A RIGHT. THE PROBLEM IS HUMANS ARE NOT HONEST. EITHER GOD REALLY SPOKE TO YOU AND THEN YOU BETTER ACT IN SUCH UNIVERSAL, LOGICAL, LOVING MANNER, OR GOD DID NOT SPEAK TO YOU WHICH THEN LEADS TO DISHONESTY, BLIND FAITH, STUPIDITY, AND IGNORANCE.

Posted by John @ 07/31/2006 04:02 PM CST

Yes, Chris, this absolutely does occur in Texas, every other state of the Union and throughout the world. Nevermind that Texas is portrayed as a big, important progressive and advanced state with wealth and power, there are certainly a lot of po' ignunt folks down here, too. Just turn on Jerry Springer or Cops. The people on those shows resemble a lot of my neighbors. The "girl-power" thing was written partially tongue-in-cheek. Jeez, there are mostly males here so why would I wish to offend the majority by tossing out something so undiplomatic? I think the quota on this board for lack of diplomacy has already been filled.

And now to address John and his spin on what I said. Perhaps I did forget to include that I also believe in the right of others to NOT believe in a God. I have no bone to pick with you if you have no desire to believe in something without empirical proof. There is room in this world for all to believe in whatever higher power that there may or may not be.

The problem lies within what morals and ethics an individual chooses to follow and believe rather than in whether or not it is derived from belief in an omnipotent being. I don't give two hoots whether someone is an atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Warlock or leprechaun...it is within one's heart and mind in which the good or bad resides. Following the false doctrines of selfish and fanatical humans are the reasons we have wars. I have yet to find one book, be it the Bible, Koran, Gone with the Wind or In Cold Blood that an individual cannot read any one of them and come away with a different perception than his brethren. We are human and find usually find what we seek or what we are taught to seek. It is rare and it is dear to stumble across an altruistic teacher who shall teach us to read, to think, and to act above and beyond the norm.

And John, my friend, you seem no different from those who fight a war in the name of their religion. You appear to stand a bit too firmly in your denouncement of individuals having the free will to choose what to believe in and having individuals at the end of the day decide to stand across the line of right or wrong. Not one religion teaches us to war. It is man that does so.

The thousands of branches of religion that you speak of are no different than a box of Tide. ALL hold the same basic ingredients of good and evil. The box is simply dressed in different colors and screech out different word-bytes in order to appeal to the masses, who are as varied as the number of stars in the sky. There are fanatics in Christianity (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, the Pope, etc) who use religion as a tool of manipulation and propaganda to further their own agendas just as there are in the world of Allah, and those who would use the Koran to teach Jihad. Unfortunately, some of those fanatics are just a bit too loud, a bit too compelling and a bit too powerful to allow ignorance to remain in bliss. The bliss is taken and twisted into a powerful killing machine, creating distrust, chaos, and death along the way. Perhaps if all the leaders in the entire world could be trusted to agree to force feed the Desiderata to ALL CHILDREN...in ALL LANGUAGES...each day for six to ten years, then this world might have a chance. But it will never happen. Nothing in the Desiderata would appeal to a powerful leader. Hardly a soul arrives at the seat of leadership in a country through a totally peaceful journey. Manipulation, corruption, secrets, bribes, sellouts...those are the tools of the trade. And those are what run the world. It is up to the individual to educate his children to be tolerant, to hold an open mind, to seek justice, to seek the proper way...the proper way being one which does not encroach upon the rights and sensibilities of others, while striving to maintain a peaceful and personable life, reaching out to others along the way whenever one can rather than to manipulate the ignorant, the poor, and the hungry. Perhaps I am dead wrong but I feel that those who have had the good fortune to be raised in a civil manner, with a good education, with a full buffet and good conversation at the supper table every night...those of us who have been afforded that, have the duty and responsibility of reaching out to those who have less and would follow any doctrine in order to feed themselves and their children. It is up to those who have to enlighten the have nots that they may have the ease of mind and sensibiities to seek what is right rather than to seek expediency. One whose inner being is as hungry as his stomach will chase the first bone tossed. Hence, war.

Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 07:10 PM CST

to Ras,

your comments again:

"The problem lies within what morals and ethics an individual chooses to follow and believe rather than in whether or not it is derived from belief in an omnipotent being. I don't give two hoots whether someone is an atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Warlock or leprechaun...it is within one's heart and mind in which the good or bad resides. Following the false doctrines of selfish and fanatical humans are the reasons we have wars. I have yet to find one book, be it the Bible, Koran, Gone with the Wind or In Cold Blood that an individual cannot read any one of them and come away with a different perception than his brethren. We are human and find usually find what we seek or what we are taught to seek. It is rare and it is dear to stumble across an altruistic teacher who shall teach us to read, to think, and to act above and beyond the norm.

Ras, the problem is that morals and ethics is deeply linked to the issue of God, and the none existence of God. Where do morals, conciesness, and values come from???? Evolution, God, society, where??? If every man and woman is left to make their own "heart", own "morals", then we would have chaos. I do agree with you that people's actions are in their hearts and minds, but that is not all, see people's actions that cause war is when they do not use their hearts and minds, which is ignorance. But, there is one thing that I have learned from studying human origins, and that is psychologically, every human is or will suffer at some point in time from not knowing where they came from. That is when they turn to some religion blindly, and they then act in a wrongfull manner. Most of what you typed is exactly they way I think too, but there is just more to in than we can imagine.

Posted by john @ 07/31/2006 08:54 PM CST

So lovely to see that you and I are able to see eye to eye upon a few things. In seeking "truth", whether it be one's origins or the destination one wishes to embark upon for the future, it is indeed a double-edged sword in which individuals must necessarily have the education and confidence to forge a good path, lest they fall prey to those who would have them follow...and to follow blindly due to their ignorance and quest for self. Unfortunately, many do not realize that the journey itself can be the reward, rather than in a heavenly afterlife playing a harp or surrounded by a multitude of virgins.

I feel that morals, conscience and values come from our teachings. The best of people can make mistakes and be turned aside from a righteous path in a weak moment by following those who are less open of heart, just as a "bad" person can be persuaded away from those who wish great harm by gathering up enough soldiers from amongst those with weakened hearts and souls. This is the reason why fanatics are so determined to fan the flames and and why they are so hellbent on creating chaos, bewilderment and confusion. It does not give a person enough time to sit down and think for himself and to come to a just conclusion. Rather, it is a manner in which to brainwash and to lead the sheeple yet again into chasing after the dreams in which only a few benefit, yet in which many end up fighting.

I feel that I am blessed in that I was taught to use my brain to think for myself rather than to hand it over to someone else to use for his or her cause. I am blessed in that my parents and their parents and my grandparents were schooled in the morals, ethics, and values that have promoted my belief in independence, peace, and humanity. I am blessed mostly, in that I do not seek instant gratification for short-term goals but rather to look down the road to where the consequences of my actions may lead me and those who are around me.

While I cannot explain where each and every trait that lies within me has originated, I can say with sufficient confidence that it did not come from osmosis. I believe that inherently, most people are good when left alone to contemplate and come to a good conclusion. I also believe that inherently, many people forget to use their brains, many people jump on a bandwagon, and many people are only too easily led astray. Again, therein lies the lack of education in both brainpower and principles. People can and often do revert to a neanderthal way of thought when their sense of security and wellbeing is threatened. It takes a particular strength from within to resist false hopes and to see beyond each quick fix.

Those who would lead the oppressed and ignorant astray do so by psychological plunder, replacing one's beliefs and goodness with rhetoric and propaganda. Those tools are given to ignorant people and whetted to a fine point in order to incite them to follow. In my opinion, ignorance and hunger are the most difficult battles to fight and until those two things are resolved, throughout the world, we will have wars. A man cannot listen to reason or look to the health of his soul until he and his children are fed. Even in America, it is hard for anybody to help feed a hungry, desperate neighbor, then help to lead him to a better place. There are just too many bandwagons screaming at the just-sated man. JUMP ON ME, JOIN UP WITH ME, FOLLOW ME. All too often, those driving the bandwagons are the very ones offering the food so that they can lure the ignorant, the hurt, the poor...into their own clutches.

Religion is not the only bandwagon ensnaring the population. It just happens to be the one being used right now in the Middle East. You have to admit that up until only the past few hundred years, the Middle East hasn't been exposed to a whole lot of anything other than their own history. Religion is about all they have. America is such a young country and huge melting pot that religion isn't the only thing to hold our interest. We have our multitudes of religions, civil rights organizations, PETA, MADD, death penalty activists, and so many other groups that any empty vessel on two legs can fill themselves immediately with whatever trips their trigger.

I could go on and on but would likely further digress than I already have. Any questions? lol Ah, let me get back to your original question, John. I still think morality, values and ethics originate from how and what we are taught and whether we are educated to use our brains to bring about a better world for all or whether we are educated to take what we want.

Posted by Ras @ 07/31/2006 10:24 PM CST

I came from my Mama! Nuff said. Suffering is over. How we get here is of no consequence. What we do now directly affects our offspring. Pretty damn obvious to me. Put down your guns, knives and spit balls; and start acting like god damned adults instead of sniviling whiney little Miss Nancies! "It's my peice of dirt...No it's mine!"

Posted by OMFG @ 07/31/2006 11:28 PM CST

I am truly taken back by the length of the diatribes on this post. This conflict is motivated by one thing, religion. I am a believer in God, however not of conventional thinking. My God comes from within, not on the pages of some ancient book(s) used to control a population. My best advice to the principals of this conflict is to throw away their extremist views of what they believe is right, and take a look at the atrocities they are committing in the name of religion. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated. Their actions are putting the innocent citizens of Lebanon at risk. Israel's opinion of themselves as a victimized society, always being attacked by "these terrorist animals" is weak. I grow tired of them playing the innocent victim in this and then waging an unmerciful attack against a country that doesn't stand a chance. I will end with this, Israel and the Jews, why are you so hated in your region over so many years. Take time for some introspective thought on this question and you will see that you are not the innocent victims you all so often claim.

Posted by micaji @ 08/01/2006 08:58 AM CST

They are the Party of God (arabic: Hizbollah). Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity. (Qur'an 58:22).. Hizbollah, the party of god, the army of Allah, the defenders of Muhammad and his prophency, the defenders of the house of Allah, clash the " Israeli " forces with an ak-47 and a katrysha missile dating back 10's of years, yet you claim this is a threat to the region, yet " Israels " high-tech weaponary, laser guided missiles, and suspect of nuclear weaponary is not? You claim to be professors in this field, yet you cannot define the difference between a great threat(evil) and a resistance.
A definition of a threat, is something/somebody, in which challenges your existence, gives a feeling of insecurness and above all is a negative impact on your mind. Israel's history, dating back merely 58 years with a history of war and violence which exceeds the history and violence of all arab nations in the region put together, yet you still claim the arabs to be terrorists and minds guided by evil. Islam the prime religion in this region, a religion of pureness, in which the fear of Allah, the one, the only is only accepted. Yet the israelis fear their own people, thy neighbour is not trusted, nor is the goverment nor the god they believe in. The belief of power through evilness such as money, weaponary, military strengths are what bring the thought of safety to the jewish faith. God, the protector, the creator is not even percieved as a path of safety and securness, but the evil deeds of this world and its surroundings are what the jewish faith believe will save them, time is limited, death is inevitable so to hide from such virtues, is to lie to ones self.
The " super power " of the modern day, believed to be the USA through econmic and miltary power, is light years ahead of the Hizbollah, who many in the world claim to be a threat. Hizbollah's, economic and military strength rely on any honest donators and their contributons, not the importing of metals and production of weaoponary, tanks, planes.The global market, currently run by corrupt zionist governments, does not give countries such as Syria, Iran, North Korea, Cuba much room for expansion, as the limited allies, and the thousands of pacts the USA have with most countries, which are accepted through the Roman Catholic Church,which is responsible for thousands of crusades and deaths over the last thousand years.
Now I need go no further, otherwise the explanation would be hundreds of pages long, but it is you who have the opportunity to read this, and the opportunity to succumb to the truth, rather then live a life mirrored by the newspaper headlines, or goverment policies. Attention to all anti-Muslim, anti-Hizbollah, anti-Arab individuals, the hate you may have towards us cannot be answered if I were to ask you why, as you do not know and have no evidence of these " threats " and evilness. Yet the headlines of a corrupt business man selling *****, or a footballer player getting drunk shall be the topic of your arguement for hours on end, many taking sides for and against, yet when thy individual muslim/christian/jew/hindu etc, take sides for and against, it is your opposing side which you claim to be wrong, and the level of importance shall determine whether their fate is seen as important.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/01/2006 03:51 PM CST

The only thing you read in my passage is that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Your narrow minded focus on that point alone is the reason for your fanaticism. If you were to RE-READ my statement, you will see that I actually agree with many of your points about Israel. Israel occupies territories illegally, and Israeli settlers terrorize Lebanese, Palestinians while hiding behind their soildiers. Israel's movement to withdrawl their settlements needs to continue, however, this cannot be done when a radical terrorist group, HIZBOLLAH, facilitates chaos.

Posted by micaji @ 08/02/2006 02:21 AM CST

The point of my post, is to prove to you Hizbollah are not terrorists. Define the meaning of terrorist to me, and provide me with examples? By the looks of it your a westerner, whose morale and value strongly supports the bush administration and its policys. Theres always two sides in a battle, for and against, on the other hand theres a difference between winning a battle and winning a war. Israel might provide false information to claim they win the battle, but the longer the Islamic resistance remains, the more support people such as yourself will give.
Its a war fought by the zionists and the mujahidin, the rest do not matter as the rest are minority in there own sense. I have read your post clearly, yet i see only one point, the elimination of hizbollah and nothing else. If hizbollah is your only problem, i did not hear you complaining 2-3 years ago? its people like you who stick their noses into business they got nothing to do with, what ever is the centre of focus you suddenly care about.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/02/2006 09:12 AM CST

A good article by Dan Bar-On. His key insight is
“The victims have an advantage over the perpetrators: They do not have to take responsibility for their own actions, as these are only a reaction to the evil acts of the others.”
The trouble is that this is not just a psychological frame of mind it can also be an effective political ploy. You can’t lose; either your gamble pays off and you get praised for good leadership or it fails in which case you can enhance yourself by making “persuasive” speeches blaming the enemy. Instead of being interpreted as evidence for the failure of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, the missiles raining down on Northern Israel are being interpreted as justification for a repeat of the previous attack.

I should like to discuss the dreaded “Israeli government’s spokespeople.”
As usual with this conflict, there are an enormous number of conflicting stories about the causes and conduct of this war. It is hard for most of us, (even those who live in the conflict area) to know enough of the truth. But what we can do is to listen to the arguments to see if they make moral and practical sense. What about the official versions put out by Israeli spokespeople? These have been:
1. That the war was a response to the capture and killing of a few Israeli soldiers.
Comment: I am not saying that this is the reason for the war. But those who attempt to use this as a justification, reveal an appalling lack of moral compass and betray a brutal, callous and irresponsible view of international relations. Have they no idea of the effect this argument has had on people around the world?

2. That the war was a response to the Hezbollah’s
use of Katyusha missiles over the years.
Comment: The accumulation and use of rockets is a very serious problem. But stating this does
not justify any old action e.g. war. At the very least the action has to act towards solving the problem. But even that is insufficient because it omits the human cost of the remedy. The spokespeople simply expect us to disregard the human cost and to uncritically accept that the war will work.

3. That some of Israel’s enemies wish to annihilate it.
Comment: There is a huge gap between this premise and a justification of the war. If the stakes are so high, it is particularly important to act responsibly. A risky adventure becomes a gamble in which the entire future of the population is placed at risk. Multiplying ones enemies and alienating ones friends is not the obvious strategy.

4. That Lebanon will be grateful to Israel for ridding it of the Hezbollah.
Comment: This kind of frivolous remark is self defeating and just provokes contempt for the spokesperson.

5. That the entire problem has been caused by Syria and Iran who form an “Axis of Evil”.
Comment: This statement which is almost a quote from George W.Bush (Tony Blair has also said it with different words) was used by Olmert himself. But it does not justify Israel’s attack on the Lebanese. It suggests instead that Israel has a choice between negotiating with Syria and Iran or acting against them in some way.

6. That Israel has no quarrel with the Lebanese and therefore gave them an opportunity to flee from their homes before bombing them.
Comment. This is another example of the callous spokesperson. I shall now have to appeal to some actual reports. According to the BBC some of these refugees were attacked from air, the evacuation was severely hampered by the damage done to the roads and old or ill people never got much of chance.

7. That the IDF have found evidence that the
Hezbollah place rocket launchers in civilian areas.
Comment: If true, this would be an act of dirty warfare by the Hezbollah. But it might also imply the most serious condemnation of the IDF. Has the IDF ever fired at specific sites with the full knowledge that they are occupied by
non combatants such as children? This would have been a crime whatever the enemy has been doing. Even if the IDF is innocent of this grave charge, the question arises in general, having discovered that this is common Hezbollah practice how can the IDF continue to target such sites and take no responsibility for the consequences?

In summary, if there are a valid reasons for this war and the way it is being conducted, they are being well hidden from view.


Posted by Geoff @ 08/02/2006 07:56 PM CST

Geoff, the BBC is one of the last organizations to look to for unbiased reporting. They report according to their agenda, the truth has nothing to do with anything. The enemies of Israel HAVE stated that all Jews should die, and Israel does have a right to defend itself.

The Israelis are trying to knock out a terrorist organization who would rather take the cowardly action of wilfully killing civilians of Israel while hiding behind the skirts of the Lebanese population.

Why are you so willing to condemn Israel and give the terrorist a pass>

Posted by Brad @ 08/03/2006 12:13 AM CST

I am not about to give you a definition of a terrorist. Any good attorney could twist the meaning of that word to include every organization/country on the globe, except for maybe Switzerland. I will, however, give you a few examples.

When Hezbollah soldiers conduct suicide truck bombings of the US Embassy and Marine barracks in Beirut in 83, I consider that a terrorist act. Once again at the Embassy in 84, another terrorist act. What about the kidnapping of numerous US and other "western" hostages in Lebanon from 82-92? Some were held for years and some were killed. Sounds like the acts of a terrorist organization to me. The attack on the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 92. In 94, the bombing of a Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires. Let me guess, the killing of innocent civilians in a different country is Hezbollah's excuse for not being considered a terrorist organization, right?
What about the TWA hijacking in 85 that was forced to land in Beirut? Terrorists demanded the release of prisioners and when those demands were not met, one of the passengers who happened to be a US Navy soilder, was shot and dumped on the tarmac. A senior officer with Hezbollah was convicted of the hijacking and is spending life in a German prison.

So you ask us to "keep our noses out of business we have nothing to do with", when your organization conducts attacks on our citizens. That logic is flawed and moronic.

Keep hiding in Lebanese homes, storing your weapons in Lebanese hospitals, and stategically locating your operations around the Lebanese public. You are cowards and terrorists and don't reflect true Muslim values.

Posted by micaji @ 08/03/2006 03:32 AM CST

Yes, i agree on all that u stated, however the Hizbollah officer was released from the german prison within months. Also, i dont accept this terrorist label for I can blow up a building and claim to be Hizbollah when im not. Also every attack from 1982 until 2000 cannot be considered a terrorist attack because the country was in war, therefore if they are being attacked at home then they have the right to attack back on the opposition front.
I am not for nor against Israel, but in 1948 whena resolution was passed to the jewish community that a government run 50-50 by arab/jews they would not accept this, and it resulted in the introduction of the back then " israeli terrorists" who would murder hundreds of palestinians over the years. Attacks on farm workers, business men and politics resulted in the arab minority fearing to start politics. Now if you accept this kind of action, and accept Israel today then i do not see the difference between that and Hizbollah, although Hizbollah did not eliminate its opponents by killing them. Now if you do not accept Israels way of dealing with the palestianian politics, then how could you fairly say Israel parliament is not corrupt?

Posted by disclosed @ 08/03/2006 10:51 AM CST

Where did you learn your history???
"it resulted in the introduction of the back then " israeli terrorists" who would murder hundreds of palestinians over the years. Attacks on farm workers, business men and politics resulted in the arab minority fearing to start politics"
Did you know that Israel didn't harm any Palestinian that didn't harm them? Go and ask the Arab-Israelis living in Israel. And even now, Israel is being as careful as it can not to hurt inoccent civillians. While the Hizballa purposely aims missles towards the bigger cities to raise the number of casaulties.
And waht do you think about Palestians who go to the streets, give out candies and celebrate when Jewish civillains are killed, even women and children?? Every time innocent people are killed by accedent by Israeli forces- they APOLOGIZE!!!
How can you compare Israel to Hizballa????

Posted by Christopher Rohloff @ 08/03/2006 12:50 PM CST

Disclosed; you clearly didn't get your name from from any revelations you have had about history, a history which you are making up as you go along. I would suggest you try reading a unbiased history of the region rather than accepting what someone upset by what they see on the tele has told you or that you dreamt up of your own accord. If anyone has failed to compromise ever in the middle east it was the Arabs as nationalists and lately as nationalist Islamists. Any human at all could not help but empathise with the suffering of Palestinians and that of innocent Lebanese held victim to Hizbollah's agenda against jews ( not just Israel, read their charter, listen to their leaders some time!!) however, beneath the narrative supplied by the pictures of death and destruction of the immediate crisis there is a greater struggle that has continued unabated in the region since the early part of last century. It is a struggle brought about by a people not considered worthy of Arab acceptance having the temerity to not lie down and die on command. You can say that Israel created the situation they find themselves in, but then you could say that the west created Israel, that the west created Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon et al, in fact you could say the west is responsible for everything that is wrong with the world, and let me guess, you probably live in the western world, accept it's benefits without qualm, relax with a beer as you watch and criticise the results of its manoeverings on TV, and pretend that you bear not one jot of responsiblility for it. In watching Israel you are watching you in the same situation, don't even kid yourself for one minute that you are not. All Israel wants to do is live in peace with people who are not plotting its destruction and using every lull in fighting to arm and train themselves in order to do so. Israel doesn''t wait for G-dot, Israel actively deals with the threat, exactly as the people of any soveriegn state would expect it's government to do.I bet you live in a country that over time has been there, seen it, screwed someone because it could, and got the t-shirt, many times over, and yet you have the conciet that your moralility rest on some kind of high ground that overlooks all human fear and sneers at it for the excess of with which it calls action against those that deliberately cause it.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 08/03/2006 02:50 PM CST

"Did you know that Israel didn't harm any Palestinian that didn't harm them?"

Mr Rohloff you are in no position to give a history lesson. The Israelis massacred numerous arab civilians duing the 48 war, as Arab Israelis would certainly have told you had you actually asked. The timeline on this very site provides some details. See also "King David Hotel".

If as you say the Israelis are trying to avoid civilian casualties they are doing a very poor job. I am sure Hizbullah would aim at equivalent targets if they had equivalent weaponry, unfortunately for them they are not bankrolled by the USA and can only use the inaccurate and indiscrimate weapons they have. Even so, Israel has killed proportionately more civilians, and ten times as many in purely numerical terms.

Palestinian society has clearly been degraded by decades of conflict, however so has the Israeli or they would not be supporting this horrible war. I also remember the Israeli festivities when Arafat died.

Zed, if Israel really wants to live in peace with its neighbours it needs to negotiate a genuine 2-state solution and stop pulverising its neighbours every time there is a border incident. The IRA killed lots of British soldiers in the 1970's, the British did not bomb Dublin to rubble.

Posted by Chris @ 08/03/2006 03:25 PM CST

Israel has negotiated a two state deal. It was unnaceptable to the Palestinian leadership for reasons that barely survive scrutiny, misplaced pride and corruption. Whatever was left out from the Oslo accords and Camp David could have been replaced in time with further negotiations between two legal governments that recognised each other, and with the help of many other states around the world who would have no further qualms about aiding Palestine because it was no longer lead by terrorists. Far sighted, altruistic; these are not terms that apply to Palestinian leaders at all. Now Palestine has a government that does not even recognise Israel so what's to negotiate??

Hizabollah had no need to negotiate anything, it was already done untill Hizbollah decided to involve Lebanon with Israel again, without bothering to first consult the Lebanese they claim to have some concern for. The Islamo-nazi utterences of Hizbollah's mentor in Iran show exactly what Israel is dealing with, Hizbollah is little more than a worldwide SS brigade, facilitating Islamo-nazi goals in the region and worldwide too. Their aims have been prosecuted as far off as Buenos Airies and Panama. Do you live in America, South America, Asia? Hizbollah's agents most certainly do, and guess what, after Israel you are next!! Be afraid, and thank G-d for Israel taking the heat off your priviledged, trusting world, for now!! Todays 'Freedom Fighters' have every intention of being tomorrows masters of the universe.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 08/03/2006 04:06 PM CST

Thanks for your reply. You write
“Geoff, the BBC is one of the last organizations to look to for unbiased reporting. They report according to their agenda, the truth has nothing to do with anything.”

As I stated , my comments concerned interviews with Israeli spokespeople. I only relied on the BBC once in my 6th. comment (see later). Yes it is true that the interviews were carried by the BBC but that is why I have tried to summarise what was said so that anyone can correct me. I have also seen some of these so-called pro-government arguments on the web.

You go on
“The enemies of Israel HAVE stated that all Jews should die,”

Yes that is true. Its very worrying. But as I wrote in my 3rd. comment, that should lead to a thinking and responsible leadership not one that lashes out creating NEW (possibly genocidal) enemies. The 1982 invasion of the Lebanon was followed by a big expansion of such enemies by adding a lot of religious people to a previously regional secular threat. So Olmert now tries to speak for the whole “non-terrorist world” against this new set of religious enemies. But he has launched a war which has led to a vast increase of his isolation. You may be shielded from this for now but it is not a good legacy for the next generation.

You continue:
“Israel does have a right to defend itself “

Please don’t sound like a government spokesperson. This proposition is empty. Can you imagine Israel NOT defending itself? Defend itself ? How? That is the whole problem under discussion.

“Why are you so willing to condemn Israel? “

NO actually rather reluctant and sad about it. I went to hear Shimon Peres (in the UK) some years ago and at that time he was discussing peace. No condemnation then. But that was then. He gave a brief interview (on the BBC I'm afraid ) and his line is quite different now. It is possible that ItzchakRabin might have had the strength not to give up so easily but we shall never know.

“and give the terrorist a pass”
Well the question is whose policy will lead to more enemies. For the last generation the number of such enemies has been growing. I wonder whether the government’s actions might have had something to do with it?

Now for my 6th. comment (in my last posting). Yes I did quote my source as the BBC for this remark. If you think the facts there are wrong I should be relieved but should like to have some evidence. That would be the advantage of a war crimes court. It would give the accused a chance of proving “his”
innocence as well as acting as a deterrent to fighters. But it is unlikely that this issue will ever be tried so it will just look very bad and be remembered.

Posted by Geoff @ 08/03/2006 06:30 PM CST

Disclosed, I am not tring to label you as Hezbollah, and if I insinuated that it certainly wasn't my intention. I do respect your views. I understand how an innocent person who is staring at his dead wife and children because of an Israeli attack in his neighborhood would join a faction who promises revenge. Honestly, I would do the same. However, the problem lies when that revenge becomes so generalized that the targets of the group are unrelated citizens of the western world. You are absolutely correct on Israeli soldiers and settlers attacking innocent Palestinian farmers. Chris Rohloff are you kidding me? "Israeli's have never harmed Palestinians that didn't harm them." That could be the most ignorant statement posted on this site. I am sure Palestinian olive farmers would disagree with you as they try to avoid bullets fired by Israeli settlers who physically and pschologically terrorize them during the farming season.

Posted by micaji @ 08/04/2006 07:17 AM CST

"Chris Rohloff", its either your ignorance or absolute stupidity to claim Israel(jews) did not lay a hand on palestinian men who didnt touch them. Another by-product of the israeli establishment was the secret agents the " Mossad " created to take out arab politicians, leaders and former Nazi war criminals. An infamous operation, the 1960 kidnapping of Nazi Adolf Eichmann in ARGENTINA, as you claim Hizbollah terrorists for its attacks overseas, this is the same thing yet israels actions are not spoken about. Also 1972 munich games, Mossad claims responsibility for killing the black september group. Israel established in 1948 with a population of 150 000 jewish, and 900 000 arabs, by 1949 over 55 refugee camps holding 750 000 arabs run by israeli soldiers. Now if this is acceptable to society 50+ years ago, then i think you are ignorant.

1939- White paper, allowing 75 000 jews into israel a year for 10 years, then splitting the nation into undivided territory, the arabs accept, the jews retaliate with hundreds of murderds occuring across israel. Not to say the arabs did not fight back, but the brutalness of these killing where israel(jews) would avenge one death of its people, by sleying 150 arabs. Although they did not kill 150 arabs for every 1 jew, they would sley 10's of arabs.

18th may 1967- Nasser, egyptian president requests the UN remove its troops from egyptian territory, UN accept.

5th june 1967- Israel fearing an uprising, destroy not only egyptian, but jordanian and SYRIAN air fields gaining air supremacy in the region.

June 1967- As expected arab nations due to Israel air strikes for no reason, declare the four " NO's " :

No recognition of Israel
No peace with Israel
No negotiation with Israel
No bargaining over palestinian question.

Almost 40 years later, you expect everything to be forgiven and forgotten?

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/04/2006 12:59 PM CST

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem:

And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Zechariah 14 - The Holy Bible.

Nuclear warfare was predicted in the bible when bows and arrows were the primary weapons. How ridicules can people be to say they don't believe in God?

I know I'll get a lot of flack from people on here that doesn't believe in God and think their opinion is the only one that matters but as for me and my family, we will support Bush and Israel. We also proudly proclaim to be Christian and seek the the return of Christ.

Also, to those who think that Christians should always turn the other cheek, watch and see if God turns the other cheek when he makes war against all the nations that war against Israel in the end times.

For those who would like to read more about the prediction above, you can find it on my website: http://websitescstslog.com/zechariah14.htm

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/12/2006 01:50 AM CST

My dear brother, in Islam this is also predicted, wel not predicted it will happen. Imam Mehdi ( A.S ) our 12th and final Imam, of the holy house of Muhammad ( P.B.U.H ), will be revealed onto this earth, when the war with the swords and horses will be fought.

In the near future i shall provide any willing, a link to read a few quotes from the Torah, and you may comment back to me on the outbreak of this war. The land of Cannes, and the 7th city of Hivites, which is southern Lebanon is the target for the jewish. I will post back on more information as soon as possible.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/13/2006 05:16 AM CST


I don't know much about the Torah, and admit to being confused about the things I do know about your religion. For one thing, is the Torah and the Koran or Quran the same book?

I have nothing against you, your people or your religion except that Muslims war against who I consider to be God's chosen people. I just wish that they could understand why Jesus is so important to plan of salvation. I do know that Jesus is mentioned in the Quran, but only as a prophet

Also, I don't have a problem with discussing religion with anyone, in fact I enjoy it as long as it is done with respect toward each other. I'm sure you believe in Islam as dearly as I believe in Christianity.

And is it true that the Quran was written several hundred years after the Holy Bible? And if it was, could it have been written solely because of the Arabs hatred for Israel and to make the Holy Bible to be as a lie?

Also Disclosed, Muslims don't just fight against and kill just Jews, they also fight against each other. The Shites, Sunnis and Kurds all fight each other and kill more Muslims than they kill Jews. Doesn't this in itself bother you?

Also, this prediction in Zechariah is only one of many predictions in the Holy Bible that tells of the end of the world conflict. The end of the world as we know it. Even after that conflict, there will still be another thousand years with Jesus as ruler over the earth.

I believe that Revelation in the Holy Bible predicts that China and Russia will join forces and overthrow all the Arab countries before they get to Israel. I believe they will do this to take all the oil which would be a brilliant strategy because it would cripple the west. And when they get to Israel that is when a nuclear explosion will happen south of Jerusalem.

Disclosed, I'm not writing this to start trouble with you. I hope you understand that I don't hate your people, I just hate your people's hatred for Israel.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/14/2006 12:22 AM CST

Dear " Lemuel McRorey ",

No you have not offended me nor my opinions in any way, shape or form. You have just provided me with a peaceful opinion of your own which I accept with open arms, as you willfully accepted mine. Now to your question regarding the Holy Torah and the Holy Quran, no these books are infact the books of Judaism and Islam respectively.

My brother, the Muslims hatred toward the " Israeli Jews " is obviously large, because it has been inflamed by the occupation of the Muslim worlds holy land by these zionists. Now you may respect our opinions and claim you do not agree with our hatred toward them, BUT if you were in our shoe, and seeing things from our perspective you would understand deeply on these thoughts. Now, most of Muslims are brought up with these hatred through generations, the same with the " Israeli Jews ". The only reason the western media depicts this, is because is it the first time that the " Israeli " war front was hit. Now the Arab/Muslim world has been hit for decades on end, yet you ask me why the hatred is so strong? I believe in Palestine as the nation, and its inhabitants can be anyone, of any religion, race or colour but I do not agree with " Israel " whose laws restrict those of Muslim/Hindu etc, backgrounds to be allowed in.

Back to your earlier statement, of whether or not the war within the Muslim world is affecting me, I say NO, because this has been going on from the time of Muhammad ( P.B.U.H )and his 12 Imams, and even earlier with the hundreds of thousands of prophets. This war is predicted, and that is why Allah, the one the only has left the hottest and most cruel of hell for these tyrant Muslims who oppose the SHIA household of Allah. No offence to my seeneh brothers here.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/14/2006 10:52 AM CST

Terrorism is the exportation of one country's criminals to another country. We all know that mass murderers usually come from middle class backgrounds, are under achievers and feel isolated from their peers. Just as we recognize the futility of negotiating with our own mass murderers, negotiating with terrorists would be fruitless. Their agenda is not politics, religion, nor social or economic beliefs. Their true agenda is the thrill of the kill. We have two options - continue to offer up our fellow man to provide terrorists with their sought after thrill, or stop them now.

Posted by Annie @ 08/14/2006 04:51 PM CST

Are you aware that (psycho analysis) psycology is not a true science as it is based on opinions and generalizations, not facts? Some mass murders are idealists (tolitarian of course) who view the deaths of their victims as a price to pay for the advancement of the whole. Idealism most times stems from religious tempering or early political ingraining. Osama Bin Laden is not a man who does what he does for the joy of the kill. He has a vision. If we are the road blocks, preventing him from his goals, then we are expendable. This is true of most terrorist organizations. It is not about joy of killing, it is about imposing ones will upon others with a belief that what you do is for the good of the world. Adolf Hitler I'm sure had this same mind set. He was not rallying the Geramn people because he hated them and wanted to get them involved in something that would lead to their demise, he had a twisted preception, in his mind he must have thought himself likened to Jesus.

Posted by OMFG @ 08/14/2006 07:07 PM CST


I was sitting here thinking about how to reply to your last comment and it occurred to me that it is difficult to talk to someone about something you know nothing about. I typed Torah into the search bar and after going to several different links, I became even more confused. I was under the impression that you were of Arab decent, but discovered that the Holy Torah is a Hebrew Bible. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So now I don't know if you are Jewish or Arab.

I have never met an Arab in my lifetime and I've never met a Muslim. I've only known one Jewish family and had bad dealings with them. My first wife divorced me to marry my best friend because he had a doctors degree. He was a Jew. This happened 30 years ago and in no way changed my love for who I consider to be God's chosen people.

Disclosed, I'm now sitting here thinking about what causes people to believe the way they believe. I think that most of it is caused through indoctrination. I was raise from my youth as a Christian. I was raised as a Baptist but no longer believe the Baptist doctrine because I no longer believe in "Once in grace, always in grace." There are many variations of Christianity. I believe that you probably never knew anything other than Islam. Am I right?

I know the Holy Bible very well. In fact, I have three adult kids that think I know the Holy Bible better than anyone else on earth. Of course thats not true. :-) My son and his family live in Florida, my two daughters and their families live in Amarillo Texas and I live a 130 miles southwest of them. Anytime one of my kids have a question about the Holy Bible, they call me. I'm very proud of that.

Disclosed, Even though I am dead set in my beliefs, I still feel compelled to learn more about other peoples beliefs so that I can get a handle on why the world has so many religious problems. Most people believe in God, and God is love, so why do so many people have to die in his name? Sorry if I bored you but this is just a few of my thought. May God bless you even if I don't agree with you. :-)

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/14/2006 10:38 PM CST


I wanted to ask you a question in the comment above and forgot to do so. Do you live in the United States? If you don't want to answer that for any reason. I'll understand and won't be offended.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/14/2006 10:49 PM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

No, actually I am from middle-eastern descent being raised in the south of lebanon although having an egyptian mother. Im highly educated on this topic, as I have went out of my way to research on both sides, and their issues and reasons. The " Holy Torah " I call it, out of respect for the jewish people, the same way they would refer to the " Holy Quran " as the " Holy Quran ".

Well, the incident with your wife and this jewish businessman, should not have you stereotyping all jewish, because the reasons vary, such as it was her choice, yes he may have used money to seduce her, but who doesnt nowadays? Corruption is one of the biggest evils on this globe, and unfortunetly you have been struck by it, and I am feeling sympathy for you. I believe you become the better person from this issue, as you are the one in the right position, and if anything were to happen she would be scooting back your way.

Congratulations, finally I have met somebody dedicated to their religion, and dont just label themself as a Muslim, Christian or Jew etc. I cannot claim that I am aware of all Christian beliefs and sayings, although I am aware of many, as I have discussed this issue with a few Christian friends. Unfortunetly, no I do not reside within the USA, and fortunetly I never have, as I could never be able to live within the boundaries run by George Bush and his administration. That is another example of corruption, in my eyes anyway.

When people die in the name of God, they are really dieing in the name of their religion, Yes all may believe in " GOD " but not neccesarily the same God.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/16/2006 04:59 AM CST


An earlier comment, you talked about the Muslims hatred for the "Israeli Jews". Does that mean that Muslims only hate Jews that live in Israel? That actually occupy the land south of Lebanon?

Also I would like to ask you about Hezbollah. You say that you grew up in south Lebanon but am I right to assume that you are not a member of Hezbollah? And if you are not with Hezbollah, have you really thought about the politics of the area?

Would you like for your people to live in a free, sovern country that is governed by a Democratically elected government or do you want your people to live under a dictatorship that suppresses his people and keeps them in turmoil for as long as they live?

Do you not understand that when Hezbollah gets too powerful, they will overthrow the elected government and probably kill all the cabinet member. Many people will die in the struggle and many more will be torchered because of their opposition to Hezbollah. Anyone that isn't Muslim will either get killed or be driven out of the country. Hezbollah will not allow freedom of speech or freedom of worship. There would probably be a civil war that would kill hundreds of thousands of Lebanese people.

Disclosed, Are you a person that appreciates the medical and financial support that Hezbollah gives to the Lebanese people? And don't you understand that, that olive leaf is only a political ploy to win the hearts and minds of the people?

Hezbollah can only survive if the Lebanese people supports them. After they overthrow the Lebanese government, they will then show their true colors.

Have you asked yourself where Hezbollah get all the money they have to win the hearts and minds of the people? Could the money have come from Iran? And if it did, could Iran's interests in the Lebanese people only be because of Lebanon's strategic location to Israel.

Disclosed, If I'm right about this, everyone you ever knew in Lebanon will be killed. Is this what you want for your people? I don't think you so!

Disclosed, I want you to know that I'm not trying to make you angry, I'm just trying to get you to think with your head and not your heart. I just want you to really think about the consequences of having a Hezbollah run government. I'm sure you think that would be great but I'm just as sure that everything will change after Hezbollah is in control.

Also Disclosed, the last thing I would like to ask you is... What is your opinion about Iran getting nuclear weapons? I think you would probably like for an Arab country to have nuclear bombs. That would mean greater power for Muslims.

I personally don't have a problem with any country having the power it needs to defend itself but do you really want Iran to be the first Arab country to develop nuclear weapons? It's only a matter of time before an Arab country has nuclear weapons, but would you really like for it to be Iran.

If Iran develops nuclear weapons, they will become the bullies on the block. they will threaten all the other Arab countries with the bomb and will bring them under submission. And believe me, they would use "the bomb" on any other Arab country that even acted like they were going to develop a nuclear weapon of their own.

Disclosed, Please don't take me wrong because of my comments. I do care about the Lebanese people. I also care about the Israeli people. I don't want anyone to die but I'm afraid that in the near future millions of Arab and Israeli people will meet their God through senseless warfare.

Thank you for responding to my comments and I look forward to your response to the questions I presented above. Thank you.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/16/2006 09:17 PM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

When I refer to the hatred toward " Israel Jews ", that is those jews who believe " Israel " is doing the right thing by attacking the lebanese people, and also by believing " Israel " is a state itself.

No, I am not part of Hizbollah, and if I were would this conversation change? Yes I have thought about the politics in the area, actually it is quite stronger then you may reflect. Honestly, as you have claimed that you are not educated or learnered enough on this topic, I dont think making gestures on " If " Hizbollah were to taker power this could mean anything. Hizbollah has seats in parliament, and whether you may believe it or not, have great support through their political status, as their " interests " are in lebanon itself. A Sayed Hassan speech recently, expressing lebanons desire for international relations, he claimed we are faced with two coalitions; Gaza to Beirut to Damascus to Tehran to Rammallah then to the world, and the other coalition being; Tel Aviv to New York to London then to the world. He told the people what would you prefer, and every one of the 2 million people at the speech said the first one, the " Non-American " path. Now be honest with me here, are you the type that believe a country who does not have international relations with the USA is wrong? and should be hated. This is the USA's main problem, it is the only superpower to survive after world war two, but does it believe that it will always remain the superpower for eternity? That is what puzzles me, as you may know history will repeat itself, and the great empire of " Rome " fell, the empire of " Ottoman " fell, every great empire has an ending.

We may sit here, years on end discussing the " ifs " and " maybes " of this conflict, but no matter what we shall not prove anything, as evil in humain affairs is inevitable, there will always be conflict.

Your statement on Hizbollah, wiping all Christians, Druze and Sunni's out of the country if they were to win power, is honestly a ignorant comment. Hizbollah may do this at present time if they want, they do have the military power and the support. That is where you are wrong, name me one time Hizbollah soldiers harmed a christian ? and one time they invaded " Israel ". ( Don't refer to the capturing of the two soldiers, " Shebah farms" are Lebanese territory. )

Now to your statement on whether Iran should have nuclear weapons or not, I honestly cant say yes or no in this, as personally it is Irans choice. The " Iran vs Iraq " saga, was merely that, it was more a " Iran+Iraq vs Saddam Hussain " saga. Iran will have nuclear weapons in the future, but we cannot say they will do this, or that until this event occurs. The future can only be made by Allah, the one, the only. Iran does not hate other arab countries, it is the arab countries who hate Iran, well only a handful in particular eg. Saudi Arabia, Jordan.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/17/2006 03:00 AM CST


You answered a question with this answer,"No, I am not part of Hezbollah, and if I were would this conversation change?"

It seems to me that your demeanor has already changed as has the conversation, why, I don't know. You seem to be very defensive when asked if you are apart of Hezbollah. I never thought you were and apologize for even mentioning it.

Also you went on to say," Honestly, as you have claimed that you are not educated or learned enough on this topic"... What topic?

I have not said that at all, except to say that I know nothing about the Holy Torah or the Holy Quran. But when it comes to war, I am very knowledgeable.

I served seven years in the U. S. military. In 1967 and 1968, I served a year and a half in Vietnam. I was a paratrooper with the 101st airborne infantry division. I've personally killed several of the enemies soldiers and I've had several of my friends killed beside me. I was 1 of 3 soldiers in my platoon of 31 men who didn't get killed or wounded. I'm also a decorated veteran as I was awarded a bronze star metal.

I'm not trying to anger you by telling you these things; I just want you to understand that I'm not as 'ignorant' as you think I am.

Also, the people that attended the Sayed Hassan speech choose the wrong road, just as the Arab people did in World war II. In my opinion, when the U.S. gets done with Iran, the president of Iran is going to regret making the same mistakes that Saddam Hussein made. Underestimating the enemy.

It's always foolish for a squeaky mouse to stand up to a roaring lion.

I'm sure you would say, Well, Vietnam defeated the American soldiers. Wrong, The American people defeated their own soldiers because they demanded that the government pull the troops out before the job was done. Also we were restricted from going into Hanoi and overthrowing the government. I don't believe that President Bush would make those mistakes again.

You also stated; The U.S. "was the only superpower to survive after world war two, but does it believe that it will always remain the superpower for eternity?"

The U.S. was a superpower long before world war II. The problem with these small Arab countries is, they think, if they could just get "the Bomb" they will be equal to the U.S. The U.S. does NOT use nuclear weapons to fight in any war. We only have nuclear bombs for defensive purposes.

The U.S. superpowerdom primarily exist because of our superior technology, our superior military training, our strategic planning and our strong democracy. Also, in the future when rouge countries shoot nukes at us, we will just shoot them down. The technology isn't 100 percent yet, but it will be.

And yes, I do believe that we will be the last superpower because I believe that the end of the world will come because of world struggles against Israel and the U.S. And I think it will happen within the next 10 to 30 years. I really don't think I'll be alive to see it.

Disclosed, I'm not telling you these things to offend you. I'm simply giving you my honest opinion just as I expect you to do the same. So please don't be offended. It's nothing personal against you.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/17/2006 09:52 PM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

I asked you whether or not the conversation will change, because you may shield yourself and say its not true it wont change, but truly you know it will. I also got defensive because Hizbollah, are a army formed of the holyiest of men, not just anybody chosen of the street. Now dont get foolish, just because they are a stronger resistance, than the petty ones you never hear about. Nowadays it is the power of an army, and its threat which are viewed, not the reasons behind the armies operations. Sayed Hassans speeches, are never violent speeches, he is a man of truth, his speeches are not only based upon " Israel " , that is where some people are wrong, his speeches are based on his interest which is " Lebanon ".

Now when you claim, the people who attend his speech are doing the same mistake as in world war II, are you comparing Sayed Hassan to Hitler? Now that is where you are wrong again, I would like you to tell me one time Sayed Hassan has ever threatened the world? The only thing comparable to this is when he quoted " Our interests lay withing Lebanon, you may think if Iran were attacked we would go over and defend it, but no, our priority, our right and our duty is to defend and gain back every inch of Lebanese soil gained by the ' Israelis '", he also quoted " Bring the world into the villages and mountain of Lebanon, and the world will lose ".

Now I want you to be straight forward with me with this answer you will give me, ' If George Bush sent the American troops into a country, where YOU know he is wrong, would you still go? '

Back to your statement on American being a superpower prior world world II, I did not say it wasnt? I said it was the only superpower to survive after world war II true?, and correct me if im wrong, but prior world war 1, ' Russia, Great Britain and Germany ' were the 3 superpowers.

Now you say, Arab countries are so involved with building these " nuclear bombs ", but throughout history, the arms race between ' Russia and the USA ', why wasnt that seen a problem? and why couldnt any other country join this race.Is it because the USA feels threatened by the Arabs, and that the Arabs are catching up, while the Russians slowly fell away and collapsed. It is fact, not fiction that throughout time even the oldest, less advanced countries will become as advanced as the most advanced country, and even overpower it.

Huge example was the Vietnam war, and communism, you may think the USA did not lose, but with the billions of dollars injected into the war, and thousands, if not millions of troops deployed, the amount of bombs dropped, the amount of times LBJ, Kennedy and the rest would do to convince the american public that they are right all failed. The geneva conference in 1948 done nothing, Ho chi minh, and the rest reigned supreme over the Indo-chine region, and the policy of communism defeated capitalism. President Diem employed by the USA, was overthrown by the people, nobody supporter the USA, their only mission was to wipe its people of the map, and start their own policys, but little did USA know that colonial days were over.

Every country will defend itself, whether through means of bombs, treaties, policys or even destroying everybody else. Now you have not offended me, why would you have? The end of the world will come, when Allah, the one, the only feels its time.

I hope I have answered all your questions, without offending you. Yours dearly, .....

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/18/2006 09:06 AM CST


Thank you for your last post, now I feel like we're back to being respectful toward each other. And even though you and I totally disagree about the facts, it does help me to understand more about your way of thinking.

I believe if I lived in one of the weakest military countries in the world, and felt somewhat threatened by a stronger power, I too might would lash out in defiance toward anyone who would question my countries motivations and policies.

Disclosed, I wish that you could understand that the U.S. does NOT want any harm to come to the people of Lebanon. For the most part, Americans love the Lebanese people and we want the Lebanese people and all Arab people to love us back.

I wish I could personally go over to the Mideast and stand on the border of Lebanon and Israel and tell Israel... You stay on that side of the fence and Lebanon, you stay on the other side of the fence. And if both countries complied, then I would say to Lebanon... We the people of the United States want to send you many gifts and we want to help you rebuild your country into the paradise that it once was.

I would say that to all the Arab people and to their countries. The middle east could become a miracle of God if people would just stop killing each other. And I wish I knew a way to cause all nations to respect each other and to invite their neighbors into their country as friends and guests instead of provoking them into being an invading force that only wants to kill your people. But the world is just too complicated.

Disclosed, I think you probably disagree with me that terrorism does not benefit your people. and I apologize for saying so, but I include Hezbollah as being a terrorist group.

A terrorist group in my opinion is group of people that answers to no country, not even their own, that kill a few people here and a few people there, not for the purpose of overthrowing a government, but just to cause problems and to sow the seeds of discord and to keep a bad situation Inflamed. and money is the motivating force that seduces terrorism. Without money from sympathizing countries or organizations, terrorist could not continue in their ungodly endeavors. Even the U.S. is guilty of financing terrorist organizations.

Fortunately for the people of the United States, we have absolutely no fear of any country invading our country and I wish all counties could feel that secure. But it's not easy being at the top; it's like putting a target on you back. All other countries are jealous of what you have and if it were possible, would take it away from you. And all they have to do is forget about what the U.S. has and concentrate on building a brighter future for their own wives and children.

I'm sure that any country that sets it's sights on being a prosperous and friendly country instead of a waring country would find that the U.S. would be very generous at helping them achieve that goal.

The U.S. is a very generous country. We're so generous that we're giving our whole country to Mexico without a shot being fired. I think that Lebanon could learn a lot from Mexico. Just flood Israel with illegal immigrants from Lebanon and you could take Israel without anyone ever being killed :-)

Disclosed, I apologize for not answering your questions but this post is already too long to answer them now but I'll do another post and only answer your questions in prior posts.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/18/2006 10:58 PM CST


I don't believe that Hezbollah is as powerful as you think it is. Yes, they built fortified positions, dug tunnels and placed land minds that slowed the Israeli troop movement. But Israel could go anywhere it wanted to, just at a slower pace.

And in my opinion, the one unforgivable thing that Hezbollah did was to fire rockets at Israeli women and children, then when Israel went in to retaliate, the Hezbollah cowards ran back and hide behind their wives and children crying Allah, Allah, save me!

As a soldier, I would be so humiliated that I would shoot myself. A soldier's first responsibility is to protect their own women and children. A real soldier would never, ever, hide behind them.

Then when The U.S. and the U.N. made a bad deal between Lebanon and Israel, Israel stopped fighting and began pulling back their troops. As soon as Israel started withdrawing their troops, the Lebanese government reneged on their agreement as did the U.N.

But you can rest assured that when the fighting ended, Hezbollah ran out from behind their women and children screaming, "We won!, We won!, Allah is great, We won!". Won what? Just what did they gain?

You said in an earlier post that I used the word "if" a lot and "if" doesn't mean anything. I beg to differ with you. You have to use the word "if" anytime your presented with a situation that could have more than one outcome. If I do this, will that happen or if I do that, will this happen.

When Hezbollah was planning to kidnap Israeli soldiers, They should have asked themselves, IF we go across the Israeli border and capture two Israeli soldiers, kill eight soldiers and shoot hundreds of Katusha rockets at the Israeli women and children, will Israel invade Lebanon, destroy half of Lebanon and kill 1500 of our people?

And Disclosed, As much as I would like to see Lebanon rebuilt, I think that it would be a waste of time and money, at this time, because eventually, Hezbollah will cause Israel to attack Lebanon again. Anyone with half a brain, knows that it WILL happen again because Hezbollah's only goal is to destroy Israel.

But Disclosed, I fear that the next time Israel has to go into Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah, they may not care if they kill Lebanese women and children. I'm sure that even you would admit that it's not over yet. And the next time, Israel won't make the mistakes they made this time. The next time Israel will go into Lebanon with a fury and I hope for your sake that you and your family live far away from Lebanon when they do.

Also Disclosed, I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about Sayed Hassan's speech about which road to choose. I never compared Sayed Hassan to Hitler. In fact I never even mentioned Hitler's name. I was talking about the people's choose of going the route through Tehran. But I do compare Iran's president to Hitler. (I don't know how to say or spell his name.) But I think that Tehran's days are numbered before Tehran is bombed into total destruction.

And Disclosed, You asked me this question, ' If George Bush sent the American troops into a country, where YOU know he is wrong, would you still go? "

No, I would not. For example, If President Bush sent troops to fight against Israel, Yes, I would fight, on the side of Israel!

and to your comment about the U.S. being the only superpower. You and I disagree on this subject also. I think Russia is still a superpower and England and Israel. And in the future, I believe China will be, but I think they will be foolish and throw the whole world into total destruction.

I hate to disappoint you, but I don't think any Arab country will ever be a superpower. I don't think you understand that the world wants all the oil in the Arab countries. Right now, I'm sure that the Arab countries think that all that oil is a blessing, but it will become their greatest curse.

When oil supplies in China and Russia runs so low that it become a national security treat in their own countries, their military forces will join together and run across The Arab countries like they weren't even there. Women and children's lives will mean nothing to them.

And also, I won't say much about the Vietnam war that you commented on, except to say that North Vietnam lost well over a million people in that war. The U.S. lost 52000. I don't know how many people were killed in South Vietnam. And our big mistake was that we didn't go into Hanoi with a ground force and destroy the government. Any military man such as myself would tell you that you can't kill a snake by chopping off it's tail, you have to cut off it's head.

Disclosed, Again I would like to say that we are just giving each other our real opinions and I know that it won't change how we think but maybe you and I can at least respect each other's honesty. Thank You!

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/19/2006 01:54 AM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

You claim Hizbollah not to be as powerful as I claim, YET throughout these days of invasion " Israel " has not harmed its military operations. Now here is where your wrong, you claim " Israel " to be advancing anywhere at a slow pace, but once again its " Israel " who invaded Lebanon, Lebanon did not invade " Israel ".

Now this about, the soldiers hiding behind their children, and women is absolutely wrong. Have you never seen their military operations, where they shoot missiles out of caves, and from mountain tops. Dont ever claim they hide behind their children and women, because as you may not know, these soldiers are sent to die. Their mission is to become a martyr and die, so why would they need to hide behind anyone? For this reason, " Israel " has not captured any Hizbollah soldiers, but are still trying to do so.

" Israeli " withdrawal took place, because the casualty rates suffered by the " Israeli " soldiers was to large, and the fact they feared the invasion of Lebanon also resulted in this. Now, you have not seen live footage of " Israel ", and believe me the destrucion that happened in Lebanon is worse then " Israels ", but the destruction in " Israel " is also very, very bad. It was up to the leader of Hizbollah for cease fire, not PEACE. Of course it is not over, in fact the support for Hizbollah, and the amount of non-muslims supporting it is growing.

Why do you use, such an impossible " IF ", that USA invade ISRAEL. How are they going to invade their own people, they wont. Something wrong would be invading " Iran " for nuclear weapons, when they got no proof their is any. Now when some president says, " Death to Israel ", why do the USA get offended? because they acknowledge the fact, their only interest is the " Israeli " people, because it is those people who will accept every policy they may make.

Now, when you say all these countries will invade the arab world because of their oil, you speak as if it will be the right thing to do? Now, the international relations between south-east asian countries, and the arab world is stronger then you may believe. Iran controls the cannal in which oil is taken from, now if Iran is so evil as you claim, why arent they blowing the oil ships passing through?

The millions killed in North vietnam, were not soldiers, and if they were they still won. The communist policy remained, the USA pulled out as it usually does in the face of defeat, and communism still reigns over many countries.

Thats not a problem, agreement results in lies, better to be upfront and personal about issues such as these. Not that we are going to prove anything to one another.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/20/2006 02:36 AM CST


I'm sure that you truly believe all those things you said. I don't know why you don't want your country to live in peace but I guess you really believe terrorist organizations can actually deliver your people from the 'great Satan's' of the world.

I am aware of the fact that dictator run governments only allow their people to hear what they want their people to hear which is rarely the truth.

And I'm sure that you know that I believe all the things I say. A lot of good people are going to die and that is a sad fact. But, I guess it really doesn't matter. 99 percent of the world really doesn't care what happens in the Mideast. (But I do.) And the truth is that everybody has to die eventually anyway so I guess to die for a cause, whether right or wrong is at least an honorable death.

Disclosed, Someday, I believe that you're really going to be disappointed when you find out that no terrorist organization is going to overthrow any government.

Disclosed, Our little chats has convinced me of one thing. There's no hope for this world. The sooner the world ends, the better.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/21/2006 03:37 AM CST

I tried to post a comment but I guess it was rejected so I'll try again.

After reading your last post. I realize that we are both set in our beliefs and nothing we say here is going to change that.

The truth is, it really doesn't matter, what ever happens is going to happen. We all have to die eventually, so to die for a cause, whether right or wrong is more honorable than to just grow old and die, I guess. I really believe you're going to be disappointed in your countries future.

Disclosed, Even though we disagree about everything, I have learned a lot from you so I can thank you for that.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/21/2006 03:59 AM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

Well I told you earlier, that these posts are meaningless, just a way of accumalating time. I learnt from this experience, and I do not doubt your intelligence nor your knowledge. I honestly respect you more highly as a character, as I believe you have learnt from this situation, and you will pass on my information to your peers, just as I have already passed on yours. I do not oppose your views through negativness, it is just my belief upon yours which is the difference. If we both agreed on this topic, we would have stopped speaking weeks ago.

If there are any other forums you go on provide me with a link.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/22/2006 03:13 PM CST


At least, we finally found something to agree on. :-)

As for your question about other forums that I visit, there's not any. I've gone into other forums but either don't leave comments or I might leave a comment and forget how I got to that particular forum or I get comments that I don;t respond to.

This is the first forum that I found someone that I really enjoyed talking to. So thanks!

Most forums have 2 or 3 people that think their opinions are the only ones that matter and if you don't agree with them then you're an idiot. Then on top of that, they think profanity and cussing impresses people. When they start that with me, I just don't reply and leave the forum.

Usually these are immature people that leaves a comment and think any comment they make is so profound that nobody would dare disagree with them. And when someone does disagree with them, they get infuriated and start throwing immature temper tantrums.

The whole idea of forums is to discuss your opinions with other people, but a lot of people just want to preach to their own choir. What good does it do to only talk to people who already share the same views?

Those people should start a forum of their own that states, Anyone who disagrees with me... LEAVE NOW!!!

But Disclosed, I would be interested to know of other forums that you visit.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/22/2006 05:54 PM CST

" Lemuel McRorey ",

Yes, I totally agree with your statements regarding these hooligans, who bombard forums with there useless bit of information, which provides nothing but a headache, and well abit of humour.

No, unforuntely I have not found any other forums regarding this topic, or any relating it. This forum is strong, but the fact i cant recieve emails when you post back makes it hard, as our time-zones are completely opposite, where I am posting at 10pm, that would be roughly 6-7 am your time.

Well, if you find any interesting topics please let me know as I am interested in expanding my knowledge on this subject, and many others. I would support the statement that I do not know anything, everytime ive learnt something new I realise I know nothing. ( Quote ' Einstein ' )

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/24/2006 05:06 PM CST


I've enjoyed talking to you. I've run out of questions but I'll drop in ever now and then to see if anything new is happening. I may not agree with your religion but I can appreciate the fact that you seem to be a good person. Thanks

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/24/2006 07:57 PM CST



I am a United States citizen. I have lived in the United States for 32 of my 33 years of life. YOU SIR ARE 100 PERCENT ACCURATE IN YOUR STATEMENTS. People like Ami and other right wing idiots in the United States are the real terrorists.
Most if not all Right Wing Republicans in the United States are Christian conservatives. So this is really simple, who is the main character in the Bible????? What is the main idea of the Bible???? Many of these Republicans quote everything in their Bible execpt the Gospels. So, now for the proof. The main character is Jesus. The main idea is Love. What is a christian???? It is to be "Christ-like", right??? Not only is Jesus the main character of the Bible, but he is God himself in flesh and blood. The same God that created these Republican conservatives, came down as a human. So what did Jesus do???? How did he respond to physical, and verbal torture???? He did NOTHING. HE LOVED THEM. HE SAID FORGIVE THEM THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
If you are a Republican right wing conservative you are usually a Chrisitian. To be a true Christian, you have to BE LIKE JESUS, NOT JUST EXEPT THAT HE SAVED YOUR SINS. It is true that no one can be perfect, but that is the IDEAL MAN. To all the the people on there radio talk shows, such as, Rush Limbaugh, and others on there right wing media, you are either a CHRISTIAN, AND YOU DO NOT BEHAVE IN ANY MATTER THAT IS DISPLEASING TO JESUS OR YOU GO TO HELL BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT REALLY CHRISTIAN. YOU CLAIM THAT IRAN, SYRIA, AND HIZBOLLAH ARE TERRORISTS, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE EXACT COPIES OF MOTHER TERESA, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT NO TERRORISTS WOULD EXIST.

Now for all the right winged idiots, especially Rush, who will say that we can't be weak, all those psycho left wingers, are going to kill us all. I only have to say this again. Was JESUS WEAK??? WHY WOULD GOD TEACH TRUE CHRISTIANS ON HOW TO BEHAVE AS A HUMAN IF IT IS A SIGN OF WEAKNESS. IS GOD WEAK????














Posted by JOHN @ 08/25/2006 06:58 PM CST


I started not to respond to your comment because I know it's just a waste of time. You're method of dealing with people is sooo counterproductive that it renders anything you say as useless.

You need to ask yourself,'Who made me so perfect?' Your thinking is, 'I know I'm right because I said so and if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot.' No sir, You don't have a clue how to negotiate with people and you're not always right. I pity any woman that is or will be married to you. She will never be allowed to have an opinion of her own.

Personally, I agree with very few things that Disclosed said but I have total respect for him. He didn't call me an idiot and he didn't put down everything I believe in. He gave me his views as he believes them and I respect him for that. I gave him my views and he responded respectfully.

Disclosed made one statement that I totally understood. He said that if I were Lebanese and was in his shoes, I would probably believe like him. I agree, but if he had said, "You're an idiot because you don't agree with me, I would not have responded to him."

I've only read one of your comments above and I can assure you that you never change any one's opinion about anything and you never will with your arrogant attitude.

Your comment that I read at the top of this page, you stated that God never promised the Israelites the Promised Land. I don't agree with you. Other things you said showed me that your total lack of knowledge concerning the Holy Bible is very clear; it's obvious that you don't believe a word of what you know about the Holy Bible or the Holy Quran.

In my religion, God and Jesus are not the same person. I believe in the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Bible says that God never changes. So, God has always used nations military to destroy his enemies as it will also be at Armageddon. Yes, it is true that Jesus taught love, but he never said "If my father sends you to fight against my enemy, tell him no! He didn't say, if someone tries to kill you and/or your family just let them do it.

John, Everyone has to die eventually but to Christians it only means you're going from this life into an eternal life. And to die in combat as a soldier who is killed for a cause, is one of the most honorable deaths you can have. Whether a person is Christian or Muslim, it's always more honorable to die fighting for what you think is righteous than it is to die as a coward.

John, I'll close with this. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't absolutely mean that you're right. And it sure doesn't mean that their an idiot or stupid or ignorant. It just means that they believe what they believe just as much as you believe what you believe and their opinion is worth just as much as yours.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/26/2006 01:00 AM CST


I forgot one thing. You said that Jesus said to always turn the other cheek. Explain to me how he turned the other cheek when he lost his temper at the synagogue and overthrew the money changers tables?

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/26/2006 01:19 AM CST

" John ",

Ive read what you have posted, and honestly how illiterate can somebody be. You cannot space your post out, you cannot place your information into neat paragraphs im lost on where to start responding to you as I cannot possibly place all your points together. Also, writing in capitals will not prove your point anymore, rather make you look stupid.

Anyways, on you using the bible, and whatsoever to prove a point will do nothing here, as Lemuel and myself have been discussing a variation of topics, and as we discussed prior to your post, the hooligans who post useless information. Now, if you wanted to respond to the topic, we would both answer you with our personal view, now the point of a forum to express your opinion and to discuss not ARGUE. By the looks of things you are arguing, so I will not even bother replying with my own questions, because you will probably respond with more capital letters, and im not in the mood for glaring the screen.

Nicely answered Lemuel, you've dealt with this hooligan very easily, I congratulate you, hope you didnt sweat on it, because I sure bet he did using all them capitals. Wa Alaykum El Salam, May God Bless You.

Posted by Disclosed @ 08/26/2006 07:39 AM CST


I appreciate your kind words to me but I have to reiterate that it is not helpful to call someone stupid or idiot or ignorant. It only invites a similar comeback. Let us all show respect to each other and just maybe we each could get the same in return.

I'm just as guilty of saying things I shouldn't as anyone so I include myself in this wrongdoing. After I posted my last two comments, I realized that I told John that he had an arrogant attitude and for that John I apologize.

Thanks again Disclosed and may God bless you as well. Thanks

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 08/26/2006 02:24 PM CST

how nice of both of you to be such saints, ok, i will respect both of you too. But just remember, i do not state or believe opinions. I stick to facts and truths. that is all.

For Lemuel, i qoute what you typed first:
"In my religion, God and Jesus are not the same person. I believe in the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit"
First I will answer that using common sense, and then biblically.
Using common sense, God and Jesus have to be the same person. It is in the definition of the word love. God loved the world sooo much that He decided to come down to earth and interact and save and love his children. An analogy to this would be that if one of your children was in trouble in another country, would you as a loving father, make a phone call to try to help your child, or because of your tremendous love you would desparately go their yourself and same your child in person??? Using common sense and love, the answer is obvious.

Now for the proof biblically:

"We may notice first the baptismal formula, which all acknowledge to be primitive. It has already been shown that the words as prescribed by Christ (Matthew 28:19) clearly express the Godhead of the Three Persons as well as their distinction, but another consideration may here be added. Baptism, with its formal renunciation of Satan and his works, was understood to be the rejection of the idolatry of paganism and the solemn consecration of the baptised to the one true God (Tert., "De spect.", iv; Justin, "Apol.", I, iv). The act of consecration was the invocation over them of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The supposition that they regarded the Second and Third Persons as created beings, and were in fact consecrating themselves to the service of creatures, is manifestly absurd. St. Hippolytus has expressed the faith of the Church in the clearest terms: "He who descends into this laver of regeneration with faith forsakes the Evil One and engages himself to Christ, renounces the enemy and confesses that CHRIST IS GOD. . . he returns from the font a son of God and a coheir of Christ. To Whom with the all holy, the good and lifegiving Spirit be glory now and always, forever and ever. Amen" ("Serm. in Theoph.", n. 10).

Now even if God and Jesus are not the same person in your religion, Jesus is still held higher in divinity and attributes than any other biblical character. Therefore, to all Christians, Jesus is the person to be idealized and imitated.

Now for your response on what Jesus did in the synagogue. Jesus did get upset and might have overturned a table or two, but that does not compare to the many, many, many acts of patience, mercy, love, and forgiveness that was displayed in gospels. My point being is that even if Jesus did get upset, he still did not Kill, nor did he use violence to harm any specific individual.

To turn the cheek and to love the enemy is by no means a small teaching in Christianity. All the saints displayed the love for all man kind, including their enemies.


so their is the proof, plucked right out of the bible and using common sense.

Now to respond to your quote,: "So, God has always used nations military to destroy his enemies as it will also be at Armageddon. Yes, it is true that Jesus taught love, but he never said "If my father sends you to fight against my enemy, tell him no!" He didn't say, if someone tries to kill you and/or your family just let them do it."

This is where commons sense comes in. God is love. He does not have enemies. Even the DEVIL, which can be considered God's greatest enemy, is running lose. How come God doesn't kill the devil????? So let me get this straight, God loves all mankind, and Jesus teaches to love your enemy, and then that same God tells one portion of humanity to go and kill and destroy your enemies???? I don't think so. Your interpretation of the bible is completely wrong. See, God worked with the human race just like parents work with a new born child. At the beginning of the separation, through human's adolescence years, God had to teach with what he had. What God had in the Old Testament where a bunch of fighting monkies. He had to SLOWLY, VERY SLOWLY, TEACH MAN KIND ON HOW TO BEHAVE. Remember God created freedom as the most fundamental creation of mankind. Therefore when you read in the bible that wars are created in the Old Testament, it is mankind that where extremely distructive and fought wars constantly. If God chooses to interfere with a certain war that was caused by mankind in the first place, then he is only doing it to serve a better usefull purpose that he knows about. THAT DOES NOT MAKE GOD A WAR MONGER, AND A LOVER OF BATTLES. Again, read the gospels and look at how Jesus behaves OVERALL. Look how he treats a prostitute. Look at how he treats people that where torturing him. Look at what his apostles did after he died.
The true message of christianity is to love Iran, Muslims, Palestine, and all of the terrorists. Period. It is easy to love your mother and father, but try to love someone that raped your mother and killed your father. That is what Jesus meant when he taught love. If love is so damn easy to teach, then it wouldn't require the arrival of Jesus.

"Whether a person is Christian or Muslim, it's always more honorable to die fighting for what you think is righteous than it is to die as a coward."

So on that account, the Crusades and all the muslim christian wars of the past where every soldier died killing the soldier of the other faith, all went heaven. LOL. Yes let me see here, the muslims told their soldiers to fight and kill christian soldiers because if you die killing a christian in battle you will honorably go to heaven. The christians told their soldiers that if you kill a muslim soldier and die in combat fighting these muslims,then you will honorably go to heaven.
So, let me get this straight, God is in heaven accepting muslim soldiers and christian soldiers both alike and saying "job well done";.

Do you see why I call you both idiots?

Posted by john @ 09/02/2006 08:59 PM CST


I refuse to respond to John anymore until he loses his 'I'm right and you're an idiot' attitude But I would like to point out to you that the Holy Bible says that even Satan knows God.

So I can't understand why someone that doesn't believe a word of the Holy Bible always try to change your opinion by stating facts from that same Holy Bible that they don't believe in.

John stated that he wasn't giving his opinion but that he was staying with the facts. What facts? Facts that he doesn't believe in, quoted from scripture that he knows very little about. This comes from someone who claims to have common sense. Right!!! Even Satan knows the Bible and uses it to confuse God's people.

John has already admitted to being one of Satan's people by saying that he doesn't believe in God. Also Satan's people all know just enough about the Holy Bible to be dangerous to himself and anyone who listens to them.

Disclosed. In case John has confused you about the Christian faith, I want you to understand that when Jesus was baptised, God said "This is my son in whom I am very pleased. If Jesus was God the creator then why would God call Jesus his son. Jesus is God! In the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure John will come back with some of his earthshaking comments displaying what he thinks is his profound intelligence, but I will no longer respond until he ceases his immature name calling. Anyone who sees that John has left the last message, don't think for a minute that he made any kind of an impression on me. Just know that I refuse to respond to him.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 09/03/2006 08:29 AM CST


I refuse to respond to John anymore until he loses his 'I'm right and you're an idiot' attitude But I would like to point out to you that the Holy Bible says that even Satan knows God.

So I can't understand why someone that doesn't believe a word of the Holy Bible always try to change your opinion by stating facts from that same Holy Bible that they don't believe in.

John stated that he wasn't giving his opinion but that he was staying with the facts. What facts? Facts that he doesn't believe in, quoted from scripture that he knows very little about. This comes from someone who claims to have common sense. Right!!! Even Satan knows the Bible and uses it to confuse God's people.

John has already admitted to being one of Satan's people by saying that he doesn't believe in God. Also Satan's people all know just enough about the Holy Bible to be dangerous to himself and anyone who listens to them.

Disclosed. In case John has confused you about the Christian faith, I want you to understand that when Jesus was baptised, God said "This is my son in whom I am very pleased. If Jesus was God the creator then why would God call Jesus his son. Jesus is God! In the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure John will come back with some of his earthshaking comments displaying what he thinks is his profound intelligence, but I will no longer respond until he ceases his immature name calling. Anyone who sees that John has left the last message, don't think for a minute that he made any kind of an impression on me. Just know that I refuse to respond to him.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 09/03/2006 08:31 AM CST

lol, name calling over a line of communication that IS NOT PERSONAL. grow up, it is only the internet, i wouldn't talk to you this way in person, lol. oh well. this is not my last response to you however, since truth never runs.

Posted by john @ 09/06/2006 03:45 AM CST

John, you are correct in saying that you wouldn't talk to someone in person the way you talk to them in this forum. First of all, you are too much of a coward to get out from behind your keyboard and talk that way, and second you probably wouldn't have any teeth left in your mouth.

Posted by Bill @ 09/11/2006 10:41 PM CST

Bill, you are so wise. I do talk the SAME LOGICAL POINTS in person. And I do get into heated debates, but the fact that the internet isn't
personal just adds more non personal comments. I can prove this. Like I prove everything that I say. What happens when you are driving a car. Ever experienced a little problem on the road, wether someone cut you off, or somebody almost caused an accident. What is your first reaction Bill?? I will tell you. 99% of people would Honk their horn really loudly or flip the finger. Now, if you knew that the person in the other car is your sister, brother, son, or daughter. You would not honk or flip a finger.

See Bill proof. Try proving things before you mouth off, you might have better luck in steping out of "jackass" territory.

Posted by JOHN @ 09/15/2006 03:42 PM CST

The wars fought in the Mid-east are far more important than people believe. These wars were absolutely going to happen whether it be now or after tens of thousands more Americans were killed.

Talking one on one, What would be your wake up call? What would convince you that there are people you don't even know that hates you and wants to kill you? And will if they can! Of course I'm talking about terrorist.

So, you say, what does this have to do with Iraq? Iraq wasn't a terrorist state until we invaded it. How wrong can naive people be. The mindset of almost all Arab people is to destroy Israel and by association, the U.S.A.

You might ask, "Why should we kill so many people because of what a few terrorist do"?

Here's an example.
A neighbor comes into your house while you're gone and leaves a note on your kitchen table. The note says, "I want your house and everything that is in it or I'm going to kill a member of your family. And if you don't give it to me, I'll kill another member of your family and then another and then another until everyone in your family is dead. Then, I'll just take your house."

The first thing you would do is go to the proper authorities and file your complaint but what if the authorities do nothing about it? The man kills a member of your family. You don't know for sure which man in the house next door killed your family member because it's a father that has 4 grown son's living with him. You don't believe in killing or revenge so there's nothing you can do about it. So what do you do? Do you wait until he's killed everyone including yourself or do you go and kill everyone in he's house?

It's a no brainer for me. I've killed in combat and would have no problem with killing people to save my own family. The minute that I read his first note, he's whole family would be dead and if I thought all his neighbors supported his actions, I would kill them too. I wouldn't care if I was prosecuted for it later.

So, I have to ask myself, where does my family end? If another country's terrorist kills someone in my country, do I only care about my immediate family or do I care as much about my extended family that includes from shore to shore, and Canada to Mexico. Everyone in the U.S. is my family and I would be willing to die for anyone to protect them and there family.

Saddam Hussein caused his own destruction by thumbing his nose at 27 U.N. resolutions. Also, he refused to allow the inspectors to do there job. We had no way of knowing what kind of wmd's that he had. So what were we suppose to do? Wait until he had killed or caused the deaths of many of my extended family?

And last of all, Iran WILL BE the next war. There is no way out of it. And you might say, what right does the U.S. have to tell Iran that they can't have nuclear bombs? Simple answer...

By virtue of the fact that we already have three thousand nuclear bombs! That gives us the right to tell any country that they can't have nuclear capabilities. also, if Iran is allowed to develop nuclear weapons, Hezbollah would get them and use them on Israel and the U.S.

After we take care of Iran, Syria will wake up and become friendly and the Palestinians will cease to be a problem. If we do this, the world could live in peace, and if we don't, there will never be peace.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 09/16/2006 12:12 AM CST

Please excuse my last post. I was responding to another page and lost connection to the internet. When I got back on line, I noticed that my post wasn't there but I didn't notice that I was on the wrong page. I always copy my post before I submit it in case I have a problem so then all I have to do is paste my last comment into the new post without having to type it again. So I apologize if this caused any confusion.

Posted by Lemuel McRorey @ 09/16/2006 01:10 AM CST

I've just come back from a visit to Iran, and I have read over the last few comments, and honestly you want peace, hurl a commet at earth destroy everything/everyone and then the bacteria will wage war against one another.

Its the ideoligies of many people and their nations which causes division between people, and the division between people causes problems. Now if you honestly think if you take out the external and internal influences of Hezeballah that another group ( minority ) will not arise then unforuntely for you, you are wrong. I mean at the moment there are maybe 5 people here whose opinion opposes mine, does that degrade me and make me wrong? I think not, because the power of the mind will always remain the rise and downfall of every human. Now for me to have an opinion that a terrorist in your words is right, does not mean that if I were in their shoes I would do the same thing.

To have a thought, and to go through with that thought are two completely different things.

Posted by Disclosed @ 09/21/2006 03:41 AM CST

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