Fog of War in Lebanon and Israel: Rumors and misunderstandings

07/16/2006

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Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000489.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

by Moderator @ 05:47 PM CST [Link]

Replies: 104 comments

Do you know if there are other Lebanese prisoners in Israel and who they are?

Israel claims to be careful about not hitting civilian casualties, the Lebanese claims that Israel is killing only civilians and destroying only civilian infrastruce. What is the truth? Isthere a way to know? Are the Israeli army being reckless again with civilian life? Could they do better?

Do you have any comment about the peacnicks who support this war?

Posted by Micha @ 07/17/2006 04:49 AM CST

As a reply to the above comment: if you wish to be truly informed, seek your information on the web by finding lebanese english newspapers ("Daily Star") and trying to access indepedent information websites. I would advise European (and more specifically french-written articles, as they usually tend to be less biased than US/UK news articles, but that would require you read french or can get it translated.)
As an idea: since the beginning of the Israeli offense on Lebanon, there have been approx. 130 dead civilians and 250 injured (Lebanese side), and about 20 dead and about as much injured (Israeli side). Even if the numbers aren't precise, the margin is correct. Now you judge if the Israeli are avoiding civilian losses.
May Israel and Hezbollah truly regret what they've been doing to Lebanon...

Posted by Ace @ 07/17/2006 06:43 AM CST

"Israel claims to be careful about not hitting civilian casualties, the Lebanese claims that Israel is killing only civilians and destroying only civilian infrastruce. What is the truth?"

To provide somewhat of an answer to your question, it is reported that seven Canadians were killed due to Israeli bombings in Lebanon today. As usual, the "unbiased objective media" is downplaying and/or covering this information.

I'm sure Condo wants the violence to end - just like she and her NeoCon buddies want the violence in Iraq to end. Wow, such genuine concern for civilians.

Posted by MidBeast @ 07/17/2006 06:47 AM CST

It is clear that Isreal is not concerned with what they hit. They have conducted air strikes on the airport, communication and power infrastructure which are all considered to be civillian strikes. Not forgetting the bombing of roads and bridges that are merely lebanons access to the external world. Only trapping civillians in lebanon and being on the edge of a devestating war is purely inhumane and insane ... If they are concerened with hizballah ... well why dnt they just fight hizbullah and leave civilians and infrastructure safe ... Why kill the innocent !!!

Posted by Comtronics @ 07/17/2006 08:07 AM CST

Ami, you miss the point. It’s largely a question of sequence. You write: “an immediate cease fire, return of Israeli soldiers and disarmament of Hezbollah.” A true solution requires having these happen (done) in exact reverse order. In any case, Hezbollah does not agree to any of them, regardless of order. They have made themselves expendable to all but Syria and Iran.

Until now Syria was strong enough to contain the Iranian urge to sacrifice Hezbollah and to have Lebanon to go down in flames. Syria’s weakness is what caused the immediate Hezbollah aggression. Expect the Syrian regime to fall within the next six months. Non-Alawi Sunnis will take over and lean towards the U.S. Within three years it will be at peace with Israel.

If the world was perfect the U.S. would then merge Syria with the Sunni part of Iraq. But they promised Turkey that would never happened, for it would lead to a major war of independence by the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and Iran.

The ghost of Sykes-Picot and the British government’s decision to convert its navy from coal to oil before WW I lives on.

Dov (“Dubbie”) Frishberg

Posted by Dov Frishberg @ 07/17/2006 06:21 PM CST

The Hamas, Hiz, etc. regard Israelis as inhuman and treat them as such. Israeli government regard Arabs as inhuman and treat them as such. Israel has a history of being, and appears to be, somewhat indiscriminate in their attacks. Just as Hiz and Hamas are indiscriminate in theirs. My sympathies lie with the citizens of Israel, Lebanon, and Palestinian territories. They are the victims of their own governments. Until the people stand up against their own governments, clean up their own back yeards, there will be no peace. Just as many people in the States don't regard Lebanon, Syria, and Iran as civilized nations, so too should they view Israel with the same disgust. I understand Israel may appear to be over-reacting perhaps to deter Syria from deciding to step in. But just the same, if they were to do everything in their power to persue this campign the "right" way, minimizing civilian casualties, while continuing diplomatic talks with the Lebaneese government, the world community would have more sympathy for them, and perhaps come to their aid. This goes for Hamas and Hiz as well. They have been labeled terrorists because they don't play by the rules. I thought Hamas would have finally legitimitized themselves by playing politics, instead they have only used their position to hi-jack the Palestinian people's voice. Now the world will only see what Israel portrays the Palestinians as, terrorists and suicide bombers.

Posted by Drutch @ 07/17/2006 06:59 PM CST

Comtronics:
It seems to me that what Israel is doing is absolutely rational and the obvious way to destroy Hezbollah.
The destruction of the transport infrastructure prevents Hezbollah moving freely about Lebanon, and prevents re-supply by Syria or Iran.
Destroying the oil storage tanks places an enormous strain upon Hezbollah supply systems and limits their ability to move about.
Bombing the urban areas has 3 primary objectives; to destroy Hezbollah's command and communications centre; to destroy Hezbollah's arsenals; to destroy the urban environment and thus deny Hezbollah to opportunity to retreat to them and seek to fight an urban war. Thus when, at Israel's choosing, the IDF seeks to engage Hezbollah's ground troops en masse it will largely be in the open and thus much harder for Hezbollah to defend itself.
Had Israel sought to kill thousands of civilians it would not have given notice of it's intention to bomb south Beirut and elsewhere. Instead it has encouraged civilians to get out of the way. With the exception of the one incident, it seems that those civilians who have been hurt or killed have chosen to remain close to Hezbollah centres.
It is evident that from the TV news reports that Israel is executing an intense but geographically contained operation. The infrastructure damage can be easily repaired and the main part of Beirut remains untouched. If Hezbollah is destroyed there is a chance that Lebanon may at last assert itself as a sovereign nation state.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/17/2006 09:49 PM CST

Updates and comments -
I think that the missile that hit the Israeli ship is a C-802. Israeli commandos apparently took out the radar stations that operate these missiles. The missiles that are designed to hit Tel Aviv are apparently called "Zilzal." One of them was launched during Israeli attacks on "Civilian" targets today and when Lebanese saw it falling they thought they had downed an Israeli aircraft.

The "quality" of European reports can be understood from the fact that Hizbollah, listed by the EU as a terrorist organization, are consistently called "militants," whereas the brave fighters in Iraq afghanistan against British and American colonialist imperialism are called "terrorists." How's that for professionalism and objectivity??

The pictures of bombings over Beirut are spectacular. In a bombing raid of that intensity on a densely populated city one would expect thousands to die. How many civilians were killed in Falluja? How many were killed in Afghanistan? How many were killed in Allied bombings of Berlin? Yet only 130 people have been killed in all of Lebanon. One attack by your brave resistance fighters in Iraq today killed over 50 people. More people have been killed in Iraq in the same period then in Lebanon if I am not mistaken.

Moreover - consider that if Hizbollah is not stopped, then Iraq will look like a picnic. We will have bigger and better Iraqs in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Bahrain etc.

Since Israel is getting bombarded with rockets, mortars and whatnot, it would be incredibly stupid if Israel was only hitting civilians, and certainly moronic if Israel was only trying to hit civilians. It is beyond me how anyone could believe that.

Anyone who is for peace must understand - as long as the Hezbollah and the Hamas are in business there can be no peace in the Middle East, any more than there could be peace in Europe while the Nazis were in power.

Ami Isseroff

Posted by Moderator @ 07/17/2006 10:50 PM CST

It is obvious that Israel is attacking legitimate targets.

They have essentially isolated hizbullah. They are taking out there places of "business". It is unfortunate that "civilians" and terrorists choose to live among each other.

I also question the numbers since the terrorists often look like "civillians".

Posted by The Truth @ 07/18/2006 01:39 AM CST

Let's not repeat the mistake of 67 andexpect to gain more from this war than is actually possible.

As for the comparison of the Hamas and the Hizballa to the Nazis. We should not expect Islamism to go in flames in one cataclysmic war the way the Nazis did. Stalinist Communism withered away through a long cold war, Spanish and Portugese fascism were contained for years and then ended, Nasserist Baathism in Egypt became slightly but significantly more moderate without an American invasion, the one intransigent PLO moved over the yearsof conflict into a more moderate (while still quite annoying) position, while other complex processes happen in other parts of the world, most of which I do not understand. I do not claim we should not fight the Hamas and the Hizballa when necessary, but I don't think we should not expect them to be elimanated in an all out war. If Israel had insisted on fighting its wars until the complete disarmament and surrender of its enemies, all its victories whould have been defeats. Nor should we fight wars to end all wars. There will be future confrontations. Lets just try for a better strategic balance of power instead. It was already shown that the Hamas can be pushed into a ceasefire by a combination of forces, and the Hizballa has been forced to limit its actions by Lebanese public pressure, even if not sufficiently. It might be possible to acheive even better limitations and a better ceasefire if Israel combines its use of force with other tools. An all for nothing fatalistic approach will get us nowhere.

Posted by Micha @ 07/18/2006 03:31 AM CST

It is interesting how Israel and world heads of state are reacting to the kidnapping of two soldiers, while the international community continutally ignores the on-going international violations of Israel by its incursions into Palestinian territory and its illegal detaining and torturing of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, not to mention other on-going human violations of the Occupation. They then blame Iran and Syria for the actions of frustrated civilians who join groups like Hamas and Hizbullah. Has everyone forgotten that the history of this conflict is more than a week old? Israel thinks it can destabalize these groups. Does it not occur to them that hard core military action such as we are seeing, will turn more moderates to extremism as the casualties of the usual inevitable victims - innocent civilians - increase.

Posted by Rose @ 07/18/2006 06:36 AM CST

Is it comparable the act of hamas & hezbolah with the act of Israell ?!!
perhapse you forget the huge crimes of Ariel sharon ?!Did The people were
killed in Sabra & Shatila & Qana and... the members of Hamas & Hezbolah ?!!
Is it logic and acceptable that for capturing two soldiers , starting to
airstrike and killing civilian and children who are fleeing from the war area ?!

Posted by john @ 07/18/2006 10:23 AM CST

It seems that nearly everyone in the whole world has totally missed the point completely. While the kidnapping of the two soldiers sparked this "war", we need to think back to why and what exactly is happening here. On one side, you got the pro Israelis "have a right to do what they are doing" and on the other side, you have "they are way over reacting" folks.

Fact of the matter is, both sides are right - in THIS case. But this conflict is not by any means a new conflict. The forced removal of the Arabs from the Palestine region in the late 1940s, and the refusal of their return would OBVIOUSLY be fresh in the minds of these Arabs.

Just imagine you and your family living in one place for generations and then all of sudden told to leave and not come back in order to make room for another group of people moving in? And if you don't go, you may be KILLED? Common sense, it won't be a smooth transition and it still isn't until THIS DAY. And where did the folks go if they couldn't stay? Syria, Jordan, and of course Lebanon. This is what people are forgetting. This is why everything is still going on. And this is what the conflict is really about - not just two kidnapped soldiers.

Israel have the rights to demand the release of their kidnapped soldiers and they have the right to react - although they hardly killed any Hezbollah members in their attacks anyways, mostly civilians. But thats what happens in conflicts and war. And the fact that Israel is 100% backed up by the world's superpower - the US and Britain as well as others, they definately feel they have the right to do whatever the hell they want.

And when Israel massacres Arab Palestinians, and kiddnap civilians and goverment officials, no one seems to care. But when the opposite happens, everyone rushes to Israel's side. Since governments of the surrounding Arab nations seem incompentant to handle the situation, terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah have risen make sure Israel don't sleep well at night. And while their brutal methods of suicide bombings is quite ludacrisly brutal, it's just about their only way of doing any damage to the Israel, since no else in the world seems to care.

Granted, Israel won the 1967 war against the pathetic Arabs strategic planning and many would say that it guarantees them their legitimacy in the area. But unless they totally eradicate every Arab Palestinians to the point of endangerment of the race, then conflict WILL CONTINUE because quite obviously, they aren't going to give up. Just look at what the headache the Native American Indians did to the white Americans for the past couple hundreds of years. Of course, they could just do what the Mongols did and kill everyone completely to prevent any future conflicts (since no opposition is left alive litterally). That would solve some problems too....but as much as they would want to, it would not make them look so well to the rest of the world.

So this is an old problem, not a new one. And until the UN can get their heads together and come up with a solution that can appeal to both Israel and Palestinians, there will be more fighting in the area and more people will die.

Posted by Dolomite @ 07/18/2006 05:58 PM CST

Dolomite,
I think besides being historically naive and ill-informed, you are politically and culturally ill-informed.
The reality fo the situation is that there is absolutely no need for any of the armed agression now if your objectives are the creation of a Palestinian state and a stable Levant. War of any kind works in opposition to this be destablising the region, and stripping societies of the resources they need to develop vibrant economies.
War has not worked for the Palestinians since 1948. Yet they have not attempted the path of peace. If they wanted to stop the Israeli soldiers it would have been more effective to hand out flowers to them, and ask them to let the Palestinians have peace and a homeland. The psychological impact of non-violence of this kind towards soldiers is very effective. But the Palestinians have never attempted this and have returned time and again to the gun and the bomb.
The underlying reason IMO for this is that Palestinian leadership has never managed to resolve how to manage the change from militarism to peace. There are just too many factions with an interest in maintaining the war.
Bringing the UN in to sort this conflcit out is a recipe for disaster. The UN remains a tool of the alliances amongst member states, and serves those interests. Having a continung Israel / Palestine war suits a number of countries.

Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/18/2006 09:05 PM CST

Rod Davies,

It appears that you are the one who is seriously culturally il-informed. You are seriously suggesting that the Palestinians offer peace when they are the ones being killed and forced out of a territory they onced lived in? That they need to "request and beg" the Israelis to have their own homeland? Put it into your own perspective and think very clearly about whats wrong with that suggestions. Then maybe you'll understand why many of them would rather die that crawl on their knees and beg for their own homeland. War has not worked for the Palestinians, but its not like Israel is offering "peace" either.

Posted by Dolomite @ 07/18/2006 10:37 PM CST

The Israeli government is a disgust to the rest of the Jewish people. Their actions are without consideration and remorse for the fact that they have, with the use of military and terroristic approach concured lands and shoved Palestinian people asside like pawns for decades. They should infact be the ones to generous to the Palestinian people, thanking them in every regard for their meir megar existance on this planet. If it were not for the kindness of the Palestinians and for the shallow disregard of Jewish people by UK Isreal would have been a non existant nation. So you tell me who should be nice to whom...and who should give flower to who on the streets of this god forsaken place called Israel?

Posted by Marissa @ 07/19/2006 01:48 AM CST

Resolutions 1559 and 1560 were supposed to be for the benefit of Lebanon's security. It is a sick and twisted logic for Israel to invoke those resolutions to justify its savage assault on Lebanon's infrastructure, economy and its people. Ironically, it was Hizbollah that argued Resolutions 1559 and 1560 was a pretext for Israel, a point that ironically has been confirmed this past week.

Posted by Peter @ 07/19/2006 02:55 AM CST

i dont understand why the lebanon gov. does not send their own soldiers out to helpstop the terrorist attacks then ask for help. do they care if isreil's ciilian people die when they fire those missles into isarieles cities or town's?who is right?weher does it end? are we all goin to meet are maker soon?and fianly what about the kids?are we so stupid that we kill off the whole human race?...thanks for lettin me vent...peace to all

Posted by alex @ 07/19/2006 04:57 AM CST

To davies & Peter & Alex and ...
At the first i should say that you are a human and God gave you freedom of thought, then be freeman.
As we review the history not long ago, we observe the horrible and savagely action of prior prime minister ( Ariel sharon which is received the title " a man of peace " from the US president )to killing alot of innocent children
and people in Sabra and Shatila and other places in Lebanon and Palestin
who were not the members of Hamas and Hezbolah as john noticed above , i
see nowadays it is repeated by Olmert .one soldier is captured by Hamas
Israel in reply kill 70 people of Palestinian among them children and in
Lebanon as you see Hezbolah capture two soldiers and again in reply they
started to bombard the country and damage all off civilian facilities
and economic sources and targeting children and female which were feeling
from the south Lebanon ! is it a humanistic action and reply ?!
Who want to answer to the innocent blood which are killed in Sabra & Shatila
and Qana ?
Is life valuable only for Israeli people ?
Is safe valuable only for Israeli people ?
Is it an equivalent war ?
Is it killed people in prior 8 days in both side equal? ( 25 = 260 )?!
Is Israel goverment carring out and complying the UN declarations
which approved before 1559 ?!
Is....
My dear, pay attention that God is aware of our inside . God is observing
all these behaviour and He is the best chancellor.
Think with yourself
All of these things will be pass and only humanity will remain and the call of
consciese.
I hope that every people in all of the World be in safe and have good life.

Posted by akbar @ 07/19/2006 12:29 PM CST

>

Depends whether you think they were forced, or they left, right? This thing can go around in circles forever as to who violated which UN resolution. Both sides have violated numerous ones.

Regardless, I don't see the moral imperative of returning land to people in the event of a lost war. Honestly, do you think if Israel would have lost the war in 1948 that the Arabs would let them #1 - stay on the land or #2 have their own country.

With that logic, Mexico officialy has claims to California, New Mexico, Arizona, and portions of Texas.

For the people arguing international law, we can look at the Geneva conventions:

The taking of hostages is prohibited.

Civilians must not be used to protect military installations or operations against attacks.

Civilians who commit an offense against an occupying power which does not include an attempt against the lives of members of the occupying force or administration, pose a grave collective danger, or seriously damage property or installations of the occupying power may only be punished by internment or imprisonment. (Convention IV, Art. 68)

However, other individuals, including civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)

Posted by David @ 07/19/2006 02:49 PM CST

Dear david
you did not answer to my above questions ! are you running away from the facts?
again i asked you and other friends who think the same as you :
Did the people who killed in Sabra & Shatila & Qana and recently the 11 children ( that were fleeing from the conflict area but all of them were burning in the flame )commit hostile acts ?!!
look around and visit some web sites .for example visit tist site :
www.halturnershow.com/legacyofArielsharon.html
I invite you to think .Be brave .Do not deceive yourself. All of these behaviour are written in the history and as i told you before :
God is observing and knows every thing.
Yes ?!

Posted by akbar @ 07/19/2006 03:54 PM CST

>Honestly, do you think if Israel would have lost the
>war in 1948 that the Arabs would let them #1 - stay on the land or #2 have
>their own country.

The forming of an Israeli state, no of course not. Let them stay on the land, YES. They didn't seem to have too much problem for several hundred years up until the 20th century.

>With that logic, Mexico officialy has claims to California, New Mexico, Arizona, and portions of Texas.

Heh, totally different situation. Mexico lost the war and officially SOLD the territory to the US. Texas broke away on their own. And the former Mexican residents in the territories were NOT killed or forced to leave, but allowed to keep their land and property and was granted full US citizenship. Now everyone is happy.

In contrast to the Palestine situation, which was "partitioned" away to form the state of Israel. For things like this to be official, everyone from both sides has to agree. Of course not everyone did, hence why we still have this problem. People are still not happy.

Posted by Dolomite @ 07/19/2006 06:01 PM CST

Dear leaders ,
I think it is abnormal to let isreal to do what they want against citizen in lebanon .You should do something to save weak people .I saw what isreal is doing against our brothers and sisters there .It is an unequal war because isreal has more weapons .Hezbolah is an organisation which fight against a colonest , so it is not a terrorist organization . I am against sending international armies to lebanon .If they want to send it they should put that armis in the burder between isreal and lebanon .I am aginst puting that armies in lebanon land .

Posted by mohamed @ 07/19/2006 09:30 PM CST

Ami

I agree with you. There will be no peace in the the Middle-East as long as Hezbollah and Hamas are free to reign terror on Israel. No amount of wishful thinking, negotiations, or concessions will give Israel the peace it desires.

The following, from Hebollah's 1985 manifesto is proof enough for me:

“We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.”

“Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.”

“We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.”

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/19/2006 11:32 PM CST

ok guys. Let me clarify to the entired democratic world some incontrovertible facts that they do NOT seem to comprehend in their overly liberal and Western "modern" thinking.

The extreme political terrorist organizations like Hizballah and Hamas want Israel destroyed. Period!!! Very simple!!! They will NOT rest until Israel is wiped off the face of the earth and they have their Palestinian autonomy over the entired Israeli territory.

They will use all tools at their disposal to ensure this happens. One is political manipulation and distribution of incorrect information. They will use the humanitarian angle as they have used for freaking years and years to consolidate support of the entired world behind their "noble" causes. They will say that Israel is aggressive. They will say Israel is not supplying enough food and water to the Palestinians that live in its borders. They will brainwash the entired democratic Western world with rediculous and unfounded claims such as these to ensure international sympathy towards these animals.

Lets look into the eyes of the truth for a second. The truth that the democratic world understands on some level, and yet would deny it in the hope the truth would go away.

Democracy thinks that if we improve the living conditions of these terrorist animals, and give them more land, they will stop the bombings and live happily ever after. They think that were the democratic world more kind to these beasts, everything would be OK. Hence, the democratic world believes that it is not the terrorists that are to blame, but us. Us, the westerners.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the sooner you eliminate this misconception from your minds, the better.
We are NOT to blame. It is the freaking terrorists and the freaking terrorists only!!!! They are the bad guys. They do not understand concepts like peace, democracy, and respect for human life. They are, pure and simPle, EVIL!!!!! Behind all their political manipulations, if you carefully look at the actions of these MONSTERS, they are EVIL!!

The problem is that we and them speak two different languages. They are primitive. They are way behind US on education and cultural development. The language they speak is BLOOD AND VIOLENCE!!! and Death!!! We speak the language of verbal negotiation under the assumption that they respect human life, that they care about peace, that we are dealing with people that share our beliefs and values. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hence, we should fight with blood and violence. We have to start speaking their language. Then and only then these freaking subhumans will start taking us seriously. This is the only way to narrow the wide breach of communication that exists between terrorists and the rest of the world. I mean, they do not seem to speak our language. They refuse to embrace democracy, respect for human life, and the value of peace. These underdeveloped retarded terrorists that continue the bloodshed in Israel only understand destruction!!!! Hence, as the saying goes, if Mohammed is not coming to the mountain, we have to bring the mountain to him. Namely, if they don't speak out langiage, we have to start speaking theirs, and become so experts in it, that these diabolical creatures we call terrorists will not know what hit them!!!!
I mean, they are taught from early childhood that the more Jews they kill, the bigger chance exists for them to go to their freaking Heaven and to meet Allah!!! Where is respect for human life here? Where is civilization??? Is this what you, the Westerners, call civilized people? Is this what you call people that are capable of understanding the value of peace? I don't know about the rest of you, but I call all of these terorists pathetic!!! I laugh at them!!! They are not worth a sweat from my balls!!! Their brain (or lack thereof) MAYBE reached the stage of Neanderthals in the course of human development, but certainly moved no further.

And yet the Westterners continue to treat them as humans!!! and to negotiate with them!!! Why? Because they are afraid of them. They are afraid that if they don't negotiate, their country will start having unexpected train and building bombings. And the terrorists??? They know this. They feel it. Like any animal, they can sense fear. They can SMELL it!!!! And they take advantage of it!!! They gain support from us by making us afraid!!! Soon, very soon, this threat will grow, and their domination will gain power!!!
In negotiations, if we relinquish and agree to some of their demands in order for them to stop violence, we think that a reslolution has been reached. To the subhuman terrorists, this is a WEAKNESS!!! Evry time we accommodate their whims and desires, they perceive it as weakness!!! And they continue to take advantage of it, asking for more.
ONCE YOU GIVE THEM A FINGER, THEY WILL EAT YOUR WHOLE HAND!!!!!

So...whats the solution?? Don't give them any fingers to begin with. Exterminate them!!! This is against democracy you say?? They don't understand democracy!!! Don't forget, they only understand violence, they value that basic instinct of war that we have been trying desparately to suppress in the Western culture. These beasts are, however smart enough to use the world of politics and modern media to make themselves look good. Don't listen to them!!! At their most basic level, they are, and will always remain terrorists, whose sole purpose is the undermine democracy, destroy peace, and to bring you us, those that DO believe in democracy, nothing but terror and fear!!! Because this is the only way they will dominate!! They will use our own fear against us.
Be aware of this terrorist threat!!! Maybe it is not too late...

Lets talk about what is happening in the Middle East for a second. Why is the world surprised that Israel invaded Lebanon?? The freaking hizballah sneaked onto Israeli terrotory and kidnapped israeli soldiers for Christ Sakes!!!! Of course Israel would retaliate!!!!! Israel is a very small country!! We are talking about 6 million Jews in the midst of 300 million Arabs!!! Israel has to stay strong!!! Israel has to protect itself and Israel has to employ extreme measures to do so!!! Otherwise, it will perish!!! The threat around it is too big. There are just too many freeaking Arabs around this tiny country that want it destroyed and wiped off the face of the earth!!! Arabs that don't understand anything but violence!!!
Well, dear terrorists, don't instigate acts of war. Then, Israel won't retaliate. Otherwise, don't be surprised if Israel bombs your whereabouts. It is just simple and clear logic!!!!! And it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties. But lets not forget whose fault it is really!!! Who started the whole thing? Who started the fighting??? Who started the bombing??? Hizballah did!!! Hamas did!!! Israel always retaliates!!! All their entry into the West Bank, or the bombings of terrorist headquarters, it is the fault of the freaking terrorists!!! And us, the Westerners, the democrats, the liberals, the civilized people must never forget that!!!!!!
Palestinian casualties??? Well, it is the Arab terrorists that start the bombings. Israel retaliates. Some Palestinians die. It is the fault of the instigators that innocent people die!! Hence it is the fault of Hizballah and Hamas that their own Palestinians die!!! Not Israel's...And it always cracks me up when the Arab world blames Israel for it. It is SO PATHETIC!!! Dear terrorists, you kill your own people!! You murder your own civilians in cold blood!! Let us not carry any misconceptions or illusions about this matter!!!
But what's worse, is that some of the Western world believes these illusions...

So, the take home message:

1. To the Westerners, the democrats, the liberals, the civilized, I say..WAKE UP AND SMELL THE TERRORISTS!!! THE STENCH IS ENORMOUS!! IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO SMELL..

2. To all the Al-Qaida, and the rest of the Arab terrorists in this world, I say..SCREW YOU!!! YOU ARE BENEATH US!! AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE..

Posted by Daniel @ 07/19/2006 11:36 PM CST

Hi Ami,

A few questions for you:

(1) If there was any question in the early days of Operation Just Reward that Israel is intentionally hitting civilian targets, there is no question now. It is bombing Maronite and Sunni areas that have no plausible connection to Hizbollah whatsoever. Do you have any moral qualms about this? And what do you think Dan Halutz had in mind when he talked about turning the clock back in Lebanon 20 years?

(2) Is it really true that Israel has no choice but to attack civilian targets, since Hizbollah hides among civilians? Israel has attacked Hizbollah's military targets in the past. What's the difference now? Isn't is possible that Israel's real motivation for avoiding Hizbollah's military targets now is that wants to minimize opportunities for Hizbollah to score yet another military victory against the IDF?

(3) You say that "If the Hezbollah are allowed to attack soldiers, then Israel is at war with Lebanon, and Israel is allowed to retaliate against any and all targets that it considers to be strategic." Did you know that IDF troops have repeatedly crossed into Lebanon to attack Hizbollah tropps and fly over Lebanese airspace since 2000? By that logic, isn't Hizbollah "allowed to retaliate against any and all targets that it considers to be strategic"?

(4) Even if it were true that Hizbollah's attack was an unprovoked act of war, couldn't there have been other means of getting the hostages back without launching an all-out war against Lebanon? Couldn't, for example, at least Israel have given the Lebanese government some time to return the soldiers before attacking Lebanon?

(5) Do concepts of deterrence have any relevance to Israel? For example... Israel has F-16's to defend itself against aggression by Hizbollah and Hizbollah has rockets to defend itself from aggression by Israel. Or does only Israel have a right to defend itself?

You may find it outrageous that I am comparing Israel to Hizbollah. Yet most of Lebanon's Shiite population believes that Hizbollah's disarmament would give Israel license to commit further aggression against Lebanon.

(6) You take Lebanon to task for not implementing Resolution 1559 and 1680. It is really surprising that, in a heavily fragmented country, still vulnerable to outside influence, a lightly armed (and mostly Muslim) army would find it reluctant to disarm a powerful milita that's supported by (at least) 40% of Lebanon's population?

Moreover, you ignore the premise behind Resolution 1559: That Lebanon needed to disarm its militias in order to achive its stability. How does a resolution intended to bring stability to Lebanon become a license to Israel (in violation of over 30+ UN Security Council resolutions itself) to bomb Lebanon back to the stone ages?

(7) You rightfully worry about the rise of extremism in Lebanon, Palestine or the rest of the Arab world. Do you think Israel's invasions of Gaza and Lebanon strengthen or weaken that trend?

Look forward to your reply.

Posted by Peter H @ 07/20/2006 03:20 AM CST

just a few thoughts
(1) Most wars have a general "purpose" or goal.Ask yourself who truly gains, without any prejudice by this conflict.As I see it, the radical Islamic groups do, whether they win or not. Simply by appearing on your TV screen, like it or not, they ARE getting your attention and as one has brought up here before, they are not afraid to "fuel" their hate machine with the blood of innocents, on both sides.
(2) Numbers don't lie in this case. Although there has been a disportionate amount of people killed and wounded on the "Lebanese" side of the fence, Israel is surrounded by UN recognized governments that, like it or not, would love to see its destruction AND has attempted to do so numerous times. As much as it would serve whomever's interest(s) to paint Israel as a "bully" in this particular instance, I think that the Israeli govt. is simply making an example of what will happen when it is provoked, fair or not.
(3) No amount of good-will from the UN will change the fact that hatred on both sides will continue until there are no more refugees! As also previously stated, the U.S. and Mexico had their problems in the past with land. Allowing those within a country's borders a chance at citizenship AND religious freedom could go far. I guess I'm just a dreamer,but........
(4) Occupation forces of ANY country (liberators or not) will be looked upon as "foreign" and "evil", no matter how good their intentions are.How much help has the Arab world actually provided to END bloodshed,huh? Before one gets all emotional about this,if the Arab nations really cared about their people, wouldn't they attempt to help in a constructive way? Or, are they hell-bent on the destruction of Israel, regardless of who or how many die?
(5)I saved this comment for last. What religion TEACHES indiscriminate murder and mayhem?? I don't think true Islam does!!To those who can, PLEASE expose these malcontents for the lying blood-thirsty parasites they truly are.
(6) Yes, I am an American. No, I am not on either side. It just seems a tragedy to see people die in a world that is blind to the evil behind the actions. Maybe some day, we can see past the B.S. and realize we ALL are human beings, each and every one.

Scott

Posted by scott @ 07/20/2006 04:38 PM CST

Hi,
I am glad this blog and the issues it raises have attracted so much attention.

Some answers to Peter's questions:

1- Attacks on Maronites and Sunnis - if it is true and intentional then of course it is not wise to say the least. Contrary to what you might think I am not plugged in to the Israeli military and don't know the details. (Right wing Zionists similarly think I get my "orders" from Damascus or Tehran, but that is not true either). Israeli planes dropped leaflets on Wednesday warning people to leave the south because they would be bombing. It is hard for people to leave because the roads are messed up, and because, according to IDF, the Hezbollah are preventing people from leaving. Setting the clock back 20 years refers to the Israeli occupation period apparently. You will have to ask Halutz about that.

2- The claim that Israel is afraid to engage Hezbollah is irrelevant, since Hezbollah can do nothing to Israeli aircraft. The problem is to find Hezbollah. IAF attacks launcher crews, but these are mobile and hard to find. It is much easier to attack permanent bases and storage centers of rockets.

3- Israel has defended itself and responded to Lebanese border incursions in a "proportionate" way in the past. That is what you are referring to in your #3. Lebanon has been consistently in violation of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680, and the latest result was visible in this kidnapping.

4- The Israeli operation did not begin immediately-only pursuit The Lebanese government evinced no willingness whatever to return the hostages, not at the time of the attack, and not afterwards. There was no announcement of apology and no announcement that they would get the hostages back. It was necessary to begin the operation ASAP to prevent Hezbollah from removing the hostages to Iran as they did with Ron Arad, who has apparently been murdered.

5- The equivalence of rockets and F-16s is questionable. Israel did not attack Lebanon first. "Defense" does not include unprovoked shelling of civilians. You forget that the kidnapping ambush was accompanied by a barrage of Katyusha rockets. The rockets are not weapons that can be used to defend against anything, since they can only be used to kill civilian population, Arabs and Jews, indiscriminately. They are only terror weapons. In WW II, everyone understood this. Some people like you seem to have forgotten.

6- It seems that you will invoke international law and UN resolutions when convenient and ignore them when it is not convenient. The resolutions were not meant to promote "Stability." Lebanon under Syrian occupation was "stable." Hitler's Germany was "stable" too. So what? They resolutions were meant to promote democratic and independent government in Lebanon, which is not possible while there is an armed militia. I do not see that non-implementation of the UN resolutions has promoted "stability" - except by assassination of everyone who doesn't agree with Syria and Hezbollah. That is apparently what you support.

7- Extremism - there is no doubt that the British declaration of war on Germany in 1939 strengthened "extremism" in that country, but it was unavoidable.

I will add something that you seem to fail to understand or do not want to understand. The Lebanese government supports Hezbollah. That government may not be representative of Lebanon, but it is the government they have now. President Lahoud said that the State and the cabinet are behind the Hezbollah completely. Therefore there is no difference between Hezbollah and Lebanon.

For Scott who wrote:
"Occupation forces of ANY country (liberators or not) will be looked upon as "foreign" and "evil","
---
I think you have the wrong conflict. There are no Israeli occupation forces in Lebanon.

Ami Isseroff

Posted by Moderator @ 07/20/2006 06:23 PM CST

Ami

Well stated.

This morning I watched a report by Jim Maceda of NBC news somewhere along the Syria/Lebanon border. Not surprisingly he found that the overwhelming majoity of those leaving the fighting were Lebanese. What he did find suprising was, contrary to the media mythology floating around, that there is far more popular support in Lebanon than our media have wanted us to believe.

That's far truer than the government of Lebanon and many Lebanese want the rest of the world to know.

One of the questions I asked early on was, "Why didn't the Lebanese government ever ask for international help to get rid of Hezbollah?" They claimed they didn't want Hezbollah, but were too weak to deal with them, but only asked for international help when Israel responded to an act of war.

As much as I regret the loss of life, I see that the only choice Israel had was to fight back. Those who say that a negotiated settlement would work are pulling against the thread of Middle-East history.

I know that there are a large number of Christians living in Lebanon. I share a common faith with them. But I cannot in good conscience support any settlement that would continue to leave Israel at the mercy of terrorists any more than my father and mother's generation could support a negotiated settlement with Adolf Hitler because there were many Christians living in Germany and the rest of subjugated Europe.

There are some very important things at stake here, with the principle two being the right for Israel to exist within secure borders without fear of terror and the more fundamental right of the Jewish people to life itself. Hezbollah and Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and the death of every Jew in the Middle-East. The battle lines have been clearly drawn. Israel is in the right. I pray that in the end they achieve the just victory over terror.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/20/2006 06:51 PM CST

After browsing through the comments to this post I am moved to make several observations.
1. The Palestinians were threatened with death and forced out of their homes when the UN partitioned Israel and Palestine. These threats of death and the forced removal of Muslims was not by the Israelis. This was done by the Muslim Brotherhood and the Grand Mufti.
2. Israel withdrew from the southern Lebanon territories when resolution 1559 was passed and Lebanon guaranteed that they would occupy that zone and not allow attacks on Israel. No matter the reason, this did not occur and Israel has been repeatedly attacked. The Sec'y General of the UN has recognized this and has made it a cornerstone of his address the the Security Council. Lebanons government recognizes this but makes excuses to the world for not doing so.
3. The Geneva Convention applies to National forces who are in conflict. Hezbollah and Hamas are conveniently seperated into the political and the armed wings. They then use this pretext to give themselves "plausible deniability". However, both arms share the same end goals and strategic plans. Both are inextricably part of their governments and as such their governments are answerable for their actions. Neither Palestine nor Lebanon have disavowed Hamas or Hezbollah and/or declared them outlaw organizations thereby making them legitimate targets worldwide. The question that stands is are Hamas legitimate military representatives of their repective governments or not? If they are then they are waging war for their governments and the Geneva convention applies. If not then their governments must declare them outlaw organizations and open targets for the rest of the world.

Posted by cobaltblu @ 07/20/2006 11:27 PM CST

Ami,

OK -- let me take a different track. I realize you are in a wartime atmosphere and perhaps the best response would be to de-escalate things. So let me approach this at a different angle.

Like most of Israel, you are absolutely convinced that last week's kidnapping was an "act of war" that gave Israel no choice but to respond with nothing but unrestrained, maximum force, concepts like proportionality or the Geneva Convention be damned. As if last week was the first time in the history of the world that a militia in one country has crossed the border and attacked military forces in another country.

Actually...cross-border attacks occur all the time, all over the world. Look at the Kurdistan-Turkey-Syria borders, or the Russia-Georgia border, or India-Sri Lanka, etc. For example, PKK rebels cross over from Iraqi Kurdistan all the time to carry out attacks in Turkey. Crossing over into Kurdistan to pursue the PKK rebels would be an appropriate response. Launching a war to destroy the Iraqi Republic and dismembering its Kurdish community would not be.

Second, you are under the assumption that Israel has no alternative to what it's doing now because Hizbollah is committed to Israel's destruction. I do not deny that Hizbollah wants to destroy Israel. Does that mean it poses an existential threat to Israel? Only to the extent that Israel treats it that way. Hizbollah thrives on conflict with Israel. The more Israel escalates each incident with Hizbollah, the more it gives Hizbollah an opportunity to escalate in response. Treat a cross-border operation like the start of World War III, and that's exactly what it will become.

That doesn't mean turning the other cheek to Hizbollah. It does mean responding to Hizbollah's attacks in a measured and restrained way, avoiding disproportionate responses that only fuel the conflict. Hizbollah could not have survived if it didn't understand concepts like deterrence and balance of fear.

As analysts like Uri Avnery and Henry Siegman have argued, the best way to neutralize Hizbollah is for Israel to make a just peace with the Palestinians. What if Israel offered to hold an international peace conference with any Arab government (including the Palestinian Authority) that accepted its right to live within pre-1967 borders in exchange for a Palestinian state in all of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem?

An issue that can’t be left out is the mindset of the IDF. Why is it that the case of both Gaza and Lebanon, the IDF has responded so much more severely to the kidnapping of soldiers than to terrorist attacks on civilians? Does it have something to do with how the IDF is still smarting from its defeat to Hizbollah to 2000? With how Hizbollah continues to inflict one humiliating victory on the IDF after another? Is is possible that just as Hizbollah craves conflict for conflict’s sake, there are Generals within the IDF who have no less a thirst for war ?

Posted by Peter H @ 07/21/2006 01:10 AM CST

Peter H

Your commentary reads a lot like the lectures Back Bay parents give their kids. "If you wouldn't provoke him he'd leave you alone." Or, it sounds a lot like the words of a Florida judge to a woman who had been raped." He told her that under the circumstances the best thing she could have done was to relax and enjoy it. Or it sounds like the rambling discourse Michael Dukakis gave in a presidential debate when he was asked whether he would support the death penalty for the person who, hypothetically, had murdered his wife Kitty. All America got from him was a rambling discourse about crime statistics and legislation. From that point on America diubbed him the "ice man."

You "voice of reason" sounds like absolute insanity to me.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/21/2006 02:47 PM CST

The problem with the middle east is an underlying reason. The problem is IGNORANCE AND DISHONESTY. Let me start with the Jews, God does not give land to anyone period. God does not favor anyone period. The Jews are still waiting for there Messiah for 6000 years. Keep waiting. The moslims claim the middle east is their land because a military commander named Mohammed said that he had communication with God through angel Gabriel in a cave. Lie, Lie, Lie. If you as a human do not have common sense and logic then you are not even close to communicating with God, if he does exist. God created the human brain to THINK,and not to just accept things blindly. For both moslims and jews in the world, make sure God is REALLY SPEAKING TO YOU BEFORE YOU ACT because once you die and meet God, you will realize that you never talked to Him or recieved messages from him. God does not play favors, I don't need God to tell me that. It is common sense. If God favors anyone over someone else, then he is not a good God. The Jews must understand that God loves the leader of Hizbullah as much as their president. God loves a prostitute and a serial killer as much as anyone else. So think really deeply before you act because even if Isreal or the Muslims win the war and take over the Middle East, you will ALL DIE one day, and then you will be naked with no land, money, or military in the face of God. You want to lie to yourself and just pretend that you are having faith in the Torah, Koran or the Bible, keep it up. Faith is not just ACCEPTING BLINDLY. Use your brains. Every single true prophet in history claimed direct communication with God, through miracles. And if they were lying, then there is no God, period. Next time you pray, sit there and ask yourself if the invisible air around you is really talking back. When you pray and say something to God, pause and wait for him to REALLY SPEAK BACK TO YOU. Physical communication, not some bullcrap communication through feelings, emotions, or the heart. Wait for REAL communication, just as he did with the prophets. So before you say to yourself that you are free of sin, and that God favors you, make sure that you are really communicating with God, and not just filling your head with lies. Question EVERYTHING. Question, the bible, the koran, evolution, torah. EVERYTHING. Do not just accept something blindly, that is not faith, it is STUPIDITY.

Posted by JOHN @ 07/21/2006 05:37 PM CST

I must have misread Ami's peace. I didn't realize it was a theological treatise.

From what I read in your comment I am making a leap of faith and assume that either a theist or Christian. Myself, I'm a Christian, with a graduate degree in Christian theology, and I find your commentary offensive.

The issue on the table is Israel's right to exist as a state among the nations. As a Christian, I support that right. If the time comes for a theological discussion with Ami Isseroff or or others on Midle East Web, I believe it can, and should, be conducted with the dignity and respect the subject deserves.

I find it unfortunate that you chose to act in the manner you did. I doubt that you'd show any willingness to apologize for your offense, so I will apologize for you.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/21/2006 07:24 PM CST

The reason you got "offended" is because the TRUTH DISTURBS people. If you are an honest man Phil, than you wouldn't get offended, you would just feel sorry for me. Just look back at your history, and ask yourself how you became Christian, then you will see that you have just accepted it blindly. If Jesus's message was just to accept things blindly, then I understand how you recieved your PHD. Now for the facts. Jesus was abused, spit on, tortured and beat up for the same reasons that exist in human nature as they do today in human nature. The reason people act the way they do, such as Isrealis and Arabs, are the same reasons that existed in the humans surrounding Jesus when he was crucified. The issue at hand in the middle east is religious becuase of original sin. Original sin is in everyone, including my self, but to step out of it slowly you must start to think. Thinking is the only weapon humans have to find peace. As for Isreal's right to exist, sorry to say that right did not come from God, it came from the United Nations in 1948. Because sir, if you are saying they recieved that right from God, then logically you are also defending the rights of muslims to claim that land because the SAME God they believe in also promised that land as their holy land in their religion. Once again you demonstrate the closed mentality that was observed in the Jews and the Romans and others when they crucified Jesus. Everyone THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT ON THE ISSUE OF RELIGION. How many times in the new testament was Jesus accused of blasmephey when in fact he was just stating the TRUTH. So as people get disturbed then, you get disturbed now whey you hear the TRUTH.

Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 01:46 AM CST

John

I don't feel sorry for you. I try to give any man more dignity than that.

I didn't accuse you of blasphemy. I said you were being offensive and I stand by what I said.

Nowhere in Ami's piece or my response did anyone make theological claims on the part of the Jewish people. The land in question that Israel inhabits is theirs in the same way my property is mine. The registrar of deeds, the mortgage company, and my neighbors all recognize that 919 Neosho, Emporia, Kansas belongs to me. Since 1948 the international community has recognized Israel's right to the land they inhabit in the same manner.

By the way, much of the land "given" to Israel was actually purchased (see Alan Derschowitz's "The Case for Israel). From the middle of the 19th century till the early 20th absentee Arab landlords were selling huge parcels to of the land that Hezbollah now claims to be stolen to Jewish settlers. They actually sold it because they didn't believe it was valuable at all. Since that time Israel has done nothing to it but build a vibrant national vineyard in what was once deemed to be a wasteland.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/22/2006 03:22 AM CST

Mr. Phil, please do not get into book discussions, I've read my share. If you are sending me a source on how Isreal bought their land, I will answer that with two responses. First, I will use common sense. If you bought your home next to me fair and square in the USA, then we become neighbors. I highly doubt that is what happened. If Isreal really purchased these lands as good willed reasonable neighbors, there would not be any problem. So the fact that there was a problem and a dispute over land means that what you and Mr. Alan Derschowitz's states are LIES. Once againg the difference between common sense and just accepting what you read based on your Chrisian biases is obvious. For every book you can provide me, I can assure you there are just as many books with different points of views. Out of the entire world Isreal chose to purchase that land, why? Not because of religion, yeah right? Please read what I type before you response, because that does offend me. I never said you accused me of blasphemy, so please reread the last two sentences of my previous response. You say I am being offensive. Ok, make sure you read this part. Jesus was found to be offensive with some of his words. In John chapter 6, when he is disclosing the meaning of the "bread of life", many jews and others found that to be offensive and just left him. Then he turned to his disciples and asked if they would leave too. That is just one example. Try this one, let us pretend that Mohammed and Jesus would meet one day in the past. Are you trying to tell me that one of them would eventually not get offended. Think about it. Many Christians in the past were found to be offensive to their neighbors because their neighbors thought that they were cannibals, when in fact they were just practicing communion and eating Jesus's flesh and drink his blood. So I am not worried WHO gets offended by what I say. I love truth. And truth disturbs, just as I got disturbed when I heard truth in my past. It doesnt' matter whether you or Ami did not make theological claims. You both know that the underlying issue of all crime, stealing, killing, pride, lying and many other problems of the world exist because of humans being lost and confused on what we are and where we came from. Religion and human origins wether consiously or subconsiously dictate human action. The same reason you support the state of Isreal because you are a Christian is the same reason Muslims support arab nations like Syria and Iraq and the persian nation of Iran. So please do not tell me that this is not related to religion when EVERYTHING is related to religion and the existence or non-existence of God. I can give you examples to fill many books. Abortion, Capital punishment, recent veto by President Bush on stem cell research, suicide bombers, and yes the Isreal and Palestine issue is ALL RELATED TO RELIGION. I am sure that Jesus conducted himself with dignity and respect when he got pissed of at the temple because they were misusing the temple for money and other things that did not belong there. He got mad and yelled and threw things and other actions that I am sure people did not think he did that with "dignity and respect" as was stated in your response. Mr. Phil would you admit that you are wrong being a Chrisian? That was a rhetorical question. I know your answer is no. I asked that because I wonder how the leader of Hisbolah would answer to me asking him if he is wrong about his muslim views. In the same manner, the Jews that turned Jesus over to the Romans COULD NEVER BE CONVINCED THAT HE WAS SPEAKING THE TRUTH. So once again the problem of human external problems exist because the human is lost, confused, ignorant and dishonest at levels that we cannot even tell. Humans including you and your graduate degree in theology, is under the same original sin of being pridefull and not humble. For the most part, my interviews with Sheiks, Jewish leaders, hindu philosiphers, Christian ministers and theologians alway lead to the same uneventfull unfruitfull result, which is that each individual places what they WANT God to be like and they place Him in their pocket speaking of Him as if they know exactly what He wants. That is exactly why Jesus was crucified. Jesus was saying things that people did not and could not bear hearing. The Truth. Funny I am not even a Christian, and I know more about your religion than you do. Now I will admit I am wrong on every single point I have discussed if you will teach me otherwise. Just make sure you prove it with real intellectual disscussions and not just qoute other minds. Quote your mind and your reasoning.

Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 05:29 AM CST

Daniel if you see this, please read my comments, I have listed about 3 or 4. Read them because you are in danger of becoming a TERRORIST YOURSELF. You are closeminded. Closeminded causes ignorance which leads to stupidity which leads to many bad things. You are beneath terrorists because the difference between you and terrorists is that at least the terroists are more brave than you are. Go over there yourself and start fighting. YES YOU GO AND START FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY AND FIGHT THE NEANDROTHOLS. Want to bet you will never go. You know why? Because you are sitting at home behind nuclear weapons, tanks, and very powerfull armies. I guarantee that you and your dumb ancestors are just a stupid as terrorists. For example, I am a US citizen and I know about my country's history. Are you saying that the US population does not commit violent acts that are worse or just as bad as terrorists actions. Where do you want me to begin. I won't read a book for once and study the many inhumane actions of our history and all of people from all over the Earth. Everyone including yourself have done wrong. What a terrorist does in the middle east is equivalent to what you do when you cheat on your wife. What a terrorist does in the middle east is equal to what we did to the poor inocent native indians. What terrorists do in the middle east is equal to what the US people living in New Orleans did after Katrina. So let's be clear on one thing before you insult others, take a good look at your self mister perfect.

Posted by johm @ 07/22/2006 06:01 AM CST

Ami, I quoted the only passage in your post that is worth talking about.

Ami typed the following:
"So what would be done, in the event the casualties mount? Call off the assault and let the Hezbollah win, or continue no matter what, as the allies did in WW II.

It seems that US Secretary of State Rice is clear as mud on this issue. On the one hand:

We have said to Prime Minister Olmert and to other Israelis that we are deeply concerned about the effect on innocent civilians, and would hope that Israel would be mindful of, and restrained in, its operations so that the innocent civilians do not suffer -- innocent civilian casualties, civilian infrastructure -- and so that the Lebanese government, which is a good and democratic and, in fact, young"

Ami there are no innocent civilians. I do not buy into all that propaganda. Jews living in Isreal are just as guilty as the soldiers. Muslims living in Lebanon are just as guilty as Lebanese people. So Isreal should not have to worry about killing civilians, because they agree with Hizbolah. By the same token every Jew deserves a rocket because 90 percent of public opinion supports the attack on Lebanon. So please spare me your mercy talk and your show of GOOD WILL. You have no good will. Terrorists present terror because it is the only thing they have. If terrorists had the military of Isreal, then they wouldn't have suicide bombers. Isreal would have suicide bombers. Ami you wonder what could be done; NOTHING. No matter what, the stronger will prevail. In this case Isreal is stronger, but please do not make this out to be a moral judgement on the part of the US and Isreal because that is pathetic. Isreal is watching out for its self interests in land and religion, just as Hizbolah. There is no moral right or wrong between both sides, just let the strong take advantage of the weak as the case in all of human history, and just stay quite with your moral judgements on why the actions of Isreal are justified. They are not justified. Hisbolah is not justified, actually you know what I can't even remember the last time a state or a nation on the face of the Earth did something that was truly JUSTIFIED. Justified is in the eyes of the beholder. Ami you obviously side with Isreal. Thats it you side with Isreal, nothing else. They are also criminals. They kill people just like the suicide bombers and hizbolah. Do not talk about selfdefense because then who is really selfdefending. You say Isreal is in selfdefense, well others will say Palestine and the arab nations are in self defense because the aggressors are Isreal. They never existed before 1948. So if you look at it that way then the real terrorists are the jews who invaded arab land in 1948 and were the aggressors for over 50 years. Then we can go back further in history and say that the romans are the aggressors because they conquered the area. In history we have other aggressors, arabs, Christians, Crusades, Muslimes, Jews, Romans, everyone at one time or another claimed self defense because there is always an aggressor.
The real problem is not moral judgements and justification of why or why not a country should fight for their land. The problem is human nature. Humans cannot get along for other reasons that I have already discussed in my other postings. The only thing that seems to teach humans is destruction, so let the Isreali civilians deal with what they caused, and let the arab world deal with what they caused. Becuase they both are hypocrites and cannot get along for the benefit of a better life, then let both sides suffer. Only by suffering will people living in those areas will learn. Both sides believe in God, yet when their children die, they cry as if they will never see there children again. So pathetic, if you are a believer in the jewish faith or any faith, then you should know that whoever just died is not with God, in a better place. So hypocrites, on both sides just admit that each and everyone of you is just serving their biggest gods and that is themselves. You all serve you own interests.

Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 07:11 AM CST

Ami

Upon reading John's comments I'm getting more insight into what Isreal is dealing with right now.

John

There's nothing else that I can say that would move our discussion in the right direction.

Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/22/2006 03:03 PM CST

Thank you for your short response, I didn't feel like going to the toilet again, so thankyou Ami.

Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 04:08 PM CST

Israel. If she wasn't by far the strongest military force in the region, does anyone who is intellectually honest believe there would be one Jew left alive in Israel or the so-called Occupied Territories? The very charter of Hamas explicity calls for the destruction of Israel at the sword's edge of Jihad. Anyone who has kept abreast of Jihadist websites from Iran to Syria to Lebanon to 'Palestine' will have read or be able to read of the theology and ideology of fascist rhetoric that describes the Jew as a monkey and asks that he been drowned in the sea. How can any society that believes it has a right to call for, fund and despatch suicide bombers be they in London or Tel Aviv at once believe they should not be crushed? So what that Hamas is democratically elected? All that shows is that a terror organisation can come to power. It is failure of democracy - not a triumph. Is a terrorist organisation suddenly not one simply because it is elected? Does a terrorist become less of a terrorist because he has been given a mandate for terror by the people he lives amongst? No. The terrorist must be stopped and the people who elected him must accept responsibility for bringing him to power. When the President of Iran repeatedly calls for Israel's destruction and when this most poisonous of states shares a bed of snakes with Syria to bring the terror of Hezbollah to both Israel and Lebanon, how can any force aimed at eradicating this threat to civilisation be deemed disproportionate? No matter what the force - these are all terrorists and they must be stopped. Make no mistake about it, we are not fooled as easily as the sickly liberal apologists for terrorists pitted in their deadly fight against Israel that report the news in France or Britain whilst at the same time mourning the dead of 7/7 in London or 9/11 in New York.

Posted by andy z @ 07/22/2006 08:34 PM CST

And there is more. I have heard the liberal establishment in the the UK - be they politicians or commentators - in recent days claiming that Israel's military actions will destoy the democratic functioning of Lebanon and leave a power vaccuum in which Syria and 'militant' (should read 'terror') groups will grow. How blind these people are. Syria and the terrorists - and of course Iran - ALREADY control Lebanon. The Lebanese army is impotent, its democrats clay to be moulded and shaped in the ways of Jihad at the deadly hands of the Ayatollahs and their groupees. Hezbollah , alongside Al Qaeda and Hamas, have only two agendas and neither one has anything to do with peace or peace treaties. Firstly, these groups aim to eradicate the Zionist State and its people. Actually annihilate is the more accurate term. They wish to impose their own brand of quasi-Nazi 'final solution' on the Jewish people and their homeland. Secondly, these terrorists and their State sponsors - Iran and Syria - wish to bring Jihad - and in its wake Islamic sharia law - to the infidel world through terror and coercion and murder. They recognise no borders and respect no other way of life. No compromise. In the face of this, this present and absolute threat to the very essence of what makes man civilised and dignified, we should thank Israel and its allies a million times over for having the strength and courage to confront these terrorists and their sick credo. When Londoners are slaughtered on the Tube or Spaniards die on trains, remember - Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran, Syria, all of these and more would willingly send their children to their deaths as suicide bombers and then glorify them in the grave. If they could, right now, these terrorists would slaughter the very last one of us to stand in opposition to their warped vision of the world. Thank G-d for Israel. May G-d grant her soldiers and people protection and victory. May G-d bring peace.

Posted by andy z @ 07/23/2006 02:07 PM CST

Andy, your quote, "Israel. If she wasn't by far the strongest military
force in the region, does anyone who is intellectually honest believe
there would be one Jew left alive in Israel or the so-called Occupied
Territories." This shows your intellectual STUPIDITY. Isreal would be
the suicide bombers if Isreal did not have a strong military. Isreal
would do exactly, if not worse than Hizbolla. Andy go sit at your
window and wait for the Messiah for another 6000 years, maybe he will
show up tommorrow. You have NO intellect.

Posted by john @ 07/23/2006 08:03 PM CST

Andy one more thing, why do you type G-d instead of God? Your are an idiot, you think God gets offended by not typing in a simple letter an the letter "o", is God that stupid. Listen if God is that annoyed about things, I am sure he is more annoyed by more important things in the world than an dumb jew like yourself afraid of typing something. Watch this, God you are a moron. See, he doesn't punish me. God is a little smarter than what you make him out to be. Ignorant people like yourself are the main reasons for the middle east problems. The same narrow point of veiw that you have about your Jewish Faith, is the same narrow veiw that the Hizbollah leader has. Both of you represent the lowest levels of human intellect and dishonesty. You know that you and the leader of Hizbollah would never agree because you both claim you communicate with God, but God doesnt recognize either one of you, because the greatest organ that God created is your brains, but you both do not use it. Like I said, it is stupid religious people like yourself and muslim and christian fanatics that cause problems. Look at history and you will find that most destructiveness was caused in the name of god that you speak of. Not all, but most.

Posted by john @ 07/23/2006 08:22 PM CST

It seems the whole world has an opinion on how Israel should live and govern their land. And usually those people are writing from the comforts of their safe dwellings. This attack that was instigated by Hezbollah! Tomorrow it will be Hamas? How much should they take? A wall in north Israel won't stop it! They are doing the only thing they can. War is mean and hurts innocent people on both sides! But thats war! I hate war but sometimes it has to happen for long term peace. If we are to blame a group blame the useless UN for not following up on the resolutions it implememted!

Posted by the road map @ 07/23/2006 10:12 PM CST

One thing is certain, war rarely produces truths that are accepted as such by both sides, hence the fact that either side sees events differently from the other.Reports from either should be treated with the susual scepticism although I do have a preference for statistics simply reported (Israel) than those screamed out along with clamours for vengeance and blood ( have a guess). War also precludes the niceties so demanded of those whose experience of war is confined to televised bouts between nations.There is no nice way of conducting war, that much we can agree on surely, whatever our distaste for violence and destruction.

I can't help feeling that we are watching a two tier action going on here. On the one hand there is what appears to be an alarming complicity between Isreal and much of the rest of the world's political masters - clearly there is an agenda there, while on the other there is the tragic destruction of a peaceful nation whose people have done nothing to deserve this fate except to live under a government that couldn't deal with Hezbollah. The fact of the former is that it seems all agree( shown in whatever way best suits their alliances in thne region), the latter is necessary in order to rid the region of a parasitic infection, one that is the militant arm of Iranian foriegn policy and regional ambitions. Hezbollah is about far more than just the destruction of Israel, it is about Amadinajad's napoleonic strutting and desire for power across the Arab world and acclaim throughout Islam. The west knows this, moderate Arab nations know this, Arab nations allied to the US know this, The US especially knows this, and yet what assistance was Lebanon given except some UN resolution oft quoted but typically not acted upon? Israel is doing the dirty work because no-one else has the guts.

AS an aside, I often see villagers and locals express happiness to have Hezbollah terrorists amongst them. Frankly I think the stockholm syndrome extends far beyond kidnap hostages in western bank raids etc. I certainly wouldn't want to be a southern Lebanese villager whose opposition to having Hezbollah militants in his village or Hezbollah missiles stored in his barn was made public knowledge.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 12:48 AM CST

Dirty , work, that is funny. You make it seem that Isreal is doing this for the rest of the world. Wow, Mother Teresa in the making. NO, Isreal is doing this because they CAN. Why? Because if Syria and Lebanon had nuclear weapons or some kind of deterent, then Isreal would just take the rockets up their ass. They wouldn't do ANYTHING. But, it doesn't matter, Isreal is stronger so let them do what ever they want. There is one thing Mr. Misrahi, what you typed, "Hezbollah is about far more than just the destruction of Israel, it is about Amadinajad's napoleonic strutting and desire for power across the Arab world and acclaim throughout Islam," I am tired of stupid comments like this by Isrealis. That statment is equivalent to Puerto Rico all of a sudden having some little militia, and then saying that they want to take over the United States. WILL NOT HAPPEN. I am tired of people trying to make Isreal seem victimized all the time. Hizbollah has NO CHANCE OF DESTROYING Isreal. If they want power across the Arab world, then that is none of your bussiness. The arabs don't attack the United States because they don't want president Bush to have more power. What I have noticed is that when a democratic country kills people it is called and deemed NECESSARY, but when any form of government that is not democratic kills people it is deemed TERRORISM. Just like some Christians, all they have to do is accept Jesus Christ as their saviour, then they are free to kill, steal, rape and do what ever they please because they are going to heaven. Just because a country is democratic, like Isreal and the U.S. does not give them the right to behave in any matter that they please. Hizbollah kidnapped two soldiers and fired a few rockets, then Isreal should kidnapp a few soldiers and fire a few rockets. I can logically take a step further with my analogy to Puerto Rico, if Puerto Rico assembled a similiar militia and go into the mainland U.S. and do exactly what Hizbollah do, should the United States drop nuclear weaponry on the small island. Isreal should have just dropped one nuclear weapon because it is equivalent to the destruction they are causing in Lebanon. Now, for religion, for every comment I hear about Islamic Fundamentalism, I see the same bullcrap fundamentalism in the religion of Judaism, and Christianity. They are no different. If anything the muslim fundamentalists are more outspoken, while the jewish christian faith is more deceitfull and sneaky. What the muslim fundamentalists say out in the open, the jewish christian fundamentalists simply are sneaky about it. They work their propaganda through lies. For example, strategic targeting of Lebanon was claimed by Isreal, and the 300 civilians that died are simply used as human shields, then Isreal says, what are we supposed to do. Ok, so if there is one hizbollah fighter between 20 civilians, then it is ok to go ahead and drop the bomb, right? Funny, that is the SAME THING that terrorists do, bomb 20 civilians. So if there is an Isreali soldier on a bus full of civilians, then it is ok for a suicide bomber to destroy the bus to kill the ONE ISREALI SOLDIER plus the Isreali civilians. See the logic. If you don't see the logic, then you are a religious jewish and christian fundamentalist who will bend the truth of 2 + 2 = 4, you are simply being fundamentalist liars. Now if you see the logic of the analogies that I gave you , then you might have a successfull future in THINKING INTELLECTUALLY, and you might really find the true God one day. Isrealis are terrorists, period.

Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 04:17 PM CST

my apologies again Zed Misrahi, I thought you were a DUMB JEW.

Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 09:28 PM CST

Roadmap, read a little history before you just blabber crap. Your hate war, then you shouldn't justify it for ANY REASON. Isreal can do many things, first, as they claim they are a God loving nation, they can start by being a little bit more moral and not having disproportionate fights. Their pride is ridiculous. Hizbolah captured two soldiers then Isreal should be a little smart and ask themselves WHY DID HIZBOLAH CAPTURE 2 SOLDIERS???? Hisbollah and their regime are STUPID. That said, why belittle your intelligence and play to their stupidity by killing many more stupid people. What Isreal should have done is to try to make themselves a little more responsible ( being the superpower) in that region and tried to negotiate the return of the soldiers. They are stupid, even if negotiations didn't work, bombing Lebanon will not work. Now Isreal is placing the two soldiers even more at risk. See Isreal isn't really worried about the two soldiers, they are worried about an eye for an eye. Revenge. That is all they want. Now here are the results, two probably dead soldiers that were kidnapped, and many more dead fighting with Hizbollah. And, now I am sure hizbollah will have many more recruits available from many labenese men. Now I know and see that jews all over the world did not learn there lesson from the holocaust because if they did they would feel the tremendous suffering of the civilians in lebanon. They don't. The truth of who Isreal really is will come out in the future. They are nothing more than a stupid faith that follows stupid torah which will never see their messiah. If the messiah did show up, it was Jesus, who showed and displayed love. But of course the same jews that turned him over to the romans are still living in isreal banging their heads against walls and looking stupid. Muslim fanatics and christian fanatics, you are all just as dumb as these jews.

Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 10:11 PM CST

Make no mistake, Israel is doing what it does because it can. LOL. However I think you would have to agree that is does what it can because it must; it exists, it isn't accepted in the region and is attacked because of it and because of the evil that Israel is deemed to have perpetrated in order to exist and maintain that existance. There is a sort of chicken and egg thing going on that is best forgotten about if you want any sensible solution to ntoday's realities rather than an arguement that lasts all the way to that time when we are all finally cutting figure eights across the newly formed ice of hell.

Palestinians need hope and prosperity, the longer they think in terms of their 'humiliation' being fully accounted for, the longer their humiliation will last. Where is the brave soul that will finally do what Arafat and his personal banker baulked at when they realised that peace spelt an end to the gravy train? The one that will finally sign on the dotted line with real comitment and take the Palestinian people into the future they so badly need after the past they have sadly been as complicit in as much as anyone else. Pelsetine has always been a pawn in a game often played all around them rather than totally for them, it's time they took matters into their own hands and thought of themsleves first and the Pan Arab ambitions of vain men last.

Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 10:46 PM CST

LMAO Ron Davies, what a tard you are. Sure, a Palestinian hands a flower to an Isreali soldier and gets a bullet in the head, mission accomplished, eh? Sure tell that to the Palestinians that were being sniped for their "evil deeds" (tending to their olives) by the squatters.

Posted by OMFG @ 07/25/2006 01:57 AM CST

Thank you to Ami and some of the others for an interesting discussion, that unfortunately is too often interrupted by slaggers with nothing to say. I simply wish to add two facts that should be part of any discussion of this problem.
One is the interview Sheik Hassan Nassralah, secretary general of Hizbollah, gave on Al-Jazeera July 24 in which he said, and repeated the second time, that some members of the government of Lebanon were informed in advance about Hizbollah's abduction plans.
A second fact to consider is that the population of Lebanon today is just under four million people. However, there are at least 15 million Lebanese living abroad. I cite this fact in order to make the point that the reason Hizbollah exists is that since Lebanon got its independence from France in 1943, it has always been a fractured country based on a strictly confessional system involving Christians (Maronite and Eastern Orthodox), Druse, Muslims (Sunni, Shiite and Alawite), with a sprinkling of others, and was never a strong nation state. The Christian politician, Karim Pakradouni once said: "It is very expensive to have a national army. It is even more expensive not to have one."
Lebanon's confessional system has suffered many setbacks over the years, which accounts in some measure for the large Lebanese diaspora. But the final crack was Yassir Arafat moving his Fatah military organization to Beirut in 1970 after the PLO's unsuccessful attempt to overthrow the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (Black September.) Until that point, Israel in all its wars with Arab neighbours always made it a point to respect Lebanese sovereignty. But with Arafat came attacks on Israel, which ultimately responded with incursions into Lebanon, with this latest one being about the sixth, if memory serves me.
So this current war is nothing new. What could be new is that many other countries now see this current war as something other than the traditional and tiresome Israeli-Arab tit for tat. What they see it as, and I think there is some justifcation for such a view, is the morphing of the eternal Palestinian question into a world jihadist issue. This certainly seems to be the guiding principle of the UN Secretary General, the EU, the Anglo alliance and even Arab regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, who, while being concerned about Lebanese civilians, appear willing to give Israel time to degrade Hisbollah's military power. (As a civil society, Hizbollah actually plays an important and positive role for the Shiites of Lebanon, who were always at the bottom of Lebanon's confessional totem pole.)
In the old days, Abba Eban used to say at the UN that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
If the Palestinians shot themselves in the foot most recently with the Al Aqsa intifada and the plunder of Palestinian assets by Arafat and his Kalashnikov buddies, then Hizbollah has shot the other Palestinian foot with its campaign of militarizing the Lebanese-Israel border and its reckless, cross-border kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.
I grieve for my Palestinian acquaintances from the first intifada, the "inside" Palestinians who actually lived under Israeli occupation (and not Arafat's Fatah who lived in five-star hotels as they waged "resistance"), who so often said when asked what they would do if they could get rid of Israeli occupation. "We want a country just like Israel."
While I could support that idea, and so could many Israelis, what few in the world can support is the intolerant, racist world view of the jihadist faction of Islam. I'm sorry that so many Palestinians and Lebanese have now been forced to live in that swamp of hatred. And I'm sorry that Israelis once again are forced to take up the rifle to defend their homes and their families.

Posted by Richard Bronstein @ 07/25/2006 08:55 AM CST

Mr. Bronstein, you wrote,

"While I could support that idea, and so could many Israelis, what few in the world can support is the intolerant, racist world view of the jihadist faction of Islam."

This is propaganda, watch this:

"While I could support that idea, and so could many Arabs, what few in the world can support is the intolerant, racist world view of the Fundamentalist faction of the Jewish Faith in Isreal.

Many, many, many millions of Arabs, and EUROPEANS, would agree with my version of your propaganda. If you have nothing intellectual to say, other than repeating words from CNN, then please just stay quite for the benefit of intellectuals. Thank you.

Posted by john @ 07/25/2006 05:57 PM CST

Misrahi, I do agree with you, but as long as you are aware of that the same power hungry society also exists in Isreal and the United States. Power is 99.9% selfish. That power is abused not just in Palestinian leadership, but it also exists on Lebanese, American, Isreali, British, and ALL forms of governments. It does seem sometimes that I take sides with the opposition of Isreal, but that is only because I am trying to talk some sense into these writers that are supporting Isreal. If a writer posted for example some propaganda crap from Hizbollah, I assure you, they would feel angry to my replies. The problem is what I posted the first time on this website. Nothing more nothing less, so to take sides would be foolish because there should be NO SIDES IN WORLD PEACE. World peace is unity between every human, and one cannot take sides with anything but truth and facts. I blame Isreal exactly the same amount that I blame ALL OF THE ARAB COUNTRIES. There is not 51 to 49 ratio. Both sides suffer from ignorance that exists in every human being everywhere in the world