MideastWeb Middle East Web Log
The events in Lebanon and northern Israel largely speak for themselves, and as the situation changes and unfolds from hour to hour, any commentary is like to be misleading, or to reflect the momentary passions of war. However, a few rumors and canards and misunderstandings must be clarified.
As usual in any crisis, the Middle East rumor, prevarication and excuses mill has been working overtime. A canard circulated by supposedly respectable people claims that the Hezbollah kidnapping of Israeli soldiers was "legitimate" because the Israeli patrol had entered Lebanese territory. So let us be absolutely clear about this:
The source of the above quote is none other than Robert Fisk, who is not suspected of any Zionist sympathies. Even Fisk understands that the Hezbollah, who are allowed by the Lebanese to represent them, committed a clear act of aggression.
A second excuse that has been circulating is that the Hezbollah and Israel are morally equivalent, because the Israelis hold Lebanese prisoners for "no reason," as hostages to be traded. The prisoner whom the Hezbollah want to retrieve apparently is Samir Kuntar. Kuntar has been jailed in Israel since a 1979 attack in the northern town of Nahariyah, in which he entered an apartment and murdered three family members and an Israeli police officer. There is no moral equivalence between imprisoning the murderous Kuntar and kidnapping soldiers or civilians who are going about their business.
A third excuse that has been circulating is that the Hezbollah attacked a "legitimate" target - soldiers. This is very confused and confusing. If the Hezbollah are allowed to attack soldiers, then Israel is at war with Lebanon, and Israel is allowed to retaliate against any and all targets that it considers to be strategic. In any case, the kidnapping was accompanied by a rocket attack on Israel. Rocket attacks are aimed at civilians and are not "legitimate."
Less controversial but more confusing fog surrounds the nature of the missiles or rockets in use by Hezbollah. An Israeli "Saar-5" missile cruiser was hit by an Iranian Fajr missile. It is not clear if these missiles were fired by Iranian crews operating in Lebanon, or by Hezbollah trained in the operation of these missles. It is not clear (to me anyhow) if the reference is to the sophisticated naval missiles developed by Iran, or to a truck mounted Katyusha like rocket, also called "Fajr." Both have been supplied to the Hezbullah by Iran The nature of the rockets that hit Haifa today, killing nine people is also in doubt. These are not Katyousha rockets. They are variously identified as "Shaheen" or "Shihab" missiles, but those have a range of up to 1,500 kilometers and clearly are not what struck Haifa. Israeli sources claim that fragments of the rockets indicate that they are of Syrian manufacture.
Much of the Arab world is still of the opinion that this "incident" will end like all the others, in an exchange of prisoners. In Asharq Al Awsa, Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed writes:
The Jihadist forces backed by Iran have clearly hijacked the Palestinian issue and many other issues in the Middle East, as David Brooks notes in the New York Times. They have also hijacked the Lebanese government. Therefore there is no way forward for peace or for Lebanese freedom or any other desirable goal as long as the Hezbollah and the Hamas remain in control of the destinies of Lebanon and Palestine, allowing Iran and Syria to dictate the agenda.
However, it is not clear at all that continued Israeli military pressure can defeat the Hezbollah. Israel has already killed over a hundred people in Lebanon. Many, according to IDF, were civilians who lived next to specially built rocket storage facilities in Lebanese villages. Even so, pressure to stop the offensive is bound to mount. It would only take one disaster, such as occurred at Sabra and Shatilla or Cana, to force Israel to stop. On the other hand, Hezbollah has threatened rocket attacks on the Israeli refineries and petrochemical complex in Haifa, which could cause a disaster in Israel. Failure in trying to eliminate Hezbollah would be even worse than living with them.
So what would be done, in the event the casualties mount? Call off the assault and let the Hezbollah win, or continue no matter what, as the allies did in WW II.
It seems that US Secretary of State Rice is clear as mud on this issue. On the one hand:
Personally I do not see any progress made by moderate forces in the Middle East. Anything that was achieved in the peace process, in dialogue between peoples, anything that the Palestinians achieved in the way of responsible self-government, and all the achievements of the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon are in ruins, along with considerable portions of Beirut, parts of Nahariyah and other Israeli cities. The antics of the Hamas and the Hezbollah and the Israeli reaction, necessarily polarized both sides. The rise of the Hezbollah and the Hamas so far showed that democracy can be the road to disaster and chaos rather than the promised road to peace and progress.
I am aware that I am repeating myself, but the best course for everyone concerned is to push for an immediate cease fire, return of Israeli soldiers and disarmament of Hezbollah in accordance with U.N. Security Council Resolutions 1559 and 1680. Indeed, that is what Israel Defense Minister Peretz called for in his speech today, and it is also what Lebanese P.M. Fuad Seniora called for in his speech yesterday. Why then, isn't it happening?
Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000489.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.
Replies: 104 comments
Do you know if there are other Lebanese prisoners in Israel and who they are?
Israel claims to be careful about not hitting civilian casualties, the Lebanese claims that Israel is killing only civilians and destroying only civilian infrastruce. What is the truth? Isthere a way to know? Are the Israeli army being reckless again with civilian life? Could they do better?
Do you have any comment about the peacnicks who support this war?
Posted by Micha @ 07/17/2006 04:49 AM CST
As a reply to the above comment: if you wish to be truly informed, seek your information on the web by finding lebanese english newspapers ("Daily Star") and trying to access indepedent information websites. I would advise European (and more specifically french-written articles, as they usually tend to be less biased than US/UK news articles, but that would require you read french or can get it translated.)
Posted by Ace @ 07/17/2006 06:43 AM CST
"Israel claims to be careful about not hitting civilian casualties, the Lebanese claims that Israel is killing only civilians and destroying only civilian infrastruce. What is the truth?"
To provide somewhat of an answer to your question, it is reported that seven Canadians were killed due to Israeli bombings in Lebanon today. As usual, the "unbiased objective media" is downplaying and/or covering this information.
I'm sure Condo wants the violence to end - just like she and her NeoCon buddies want the violence in Iraq to end. Wow, such genuine concern for civilians.
Posted by MidBeast @ 07/17/2006 06:47 AM CST
It is clear that Isreal is not concerned with what they hit. They have conducted air strikes on the airport, communication and power infrastructure which are all considered to be civillian strikes. Not forgetting the bombing of roads and bridges that are merely lebanons access to the external world. Only trapping civillians in lebanon and being on the edge of a devestating war is purely inhumane and insane ... If they are concerened with hizballah ... well why dnt they just fight hizbullah and leave civilians and infrastructure safe ... Why kill the innocent !!!
Posted by Comtronics @ 07/17/2006 08:07 AM CST
Ami, you miss the point. Itâs largely a question of sequence. You write: âan immediate cease fire, return of Israeli soldiers and disarmament of Hezbollah.â A true solution requires having these happen (done) in exact reverse order. In any case, Hezbollah does not agree to any of them, regardless of order. They have made themselves expendable to all but Syria and Iran.
Until now Syria was strong enough to contain the Iranian urge to sacrifice Hezbollah and to have Lebanon to go down in flames. Syriaâs weakness is what caused the immediate Hezbollah aggression. Expect the Syrian regime to fall within the next six months. Non-Alawi Sunnis will take over and lean towards the U.S. Within three years it will be at peace with Israel.
If the world was perfect the U.S. would then merge Syria with the Sunni part of Iraq. But they promised Turkey that would never happened, for it would lead to a major war of independence by the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and Iran.
The ghost of Sykes-Picot and the British governmentâs decision to convert its navy from coal to oil before WW I lives on.
Dov (âDubbieâ) Frishberg
Posted by Dov Frishberg @ 07/17/2006 06:21 PM CST
The Hamas, Hiz, etc. regard Israelis as inhuman and treat them as such. Israeli government regard Arabs as inhuman and treat them as such. Israel has a history of being, and appears to be, somewhat indiscriminate in their attacks. Just as Hiz and Hamas are indiscriminate in theirs. My sympathies lie with the citizens of Israel, Lebanon, and Palestinian territories. They are the victims of their own governments. Until the people stand up against their own governments, clean up their own back yeards, there will be no peace. Just as many people in the States don't regard Lebanon, Syria, and Iran as civilized nations, so too should they view Israel with the same disgust. I understand Israel may appear to be over-reacting perhaps to deter Syria from deciding to step in. But just the same, if they were to do everything in their power to persue this campign the "right" way, minimizing civilian casualties, while continuing diplomatic talks with the Lebaneese government, the world community would have more sympathy for them, and perhaps come to their aid. This goes for Hamas and Hiz as well. They have been labeled terrorists because they don't play by the rules. I thought Hamas would have finally legitimitized themselves by playing politics, instead they have only used their position to hi-jack the Palestinian people's voice. Now the world will only see what Israel portrays the Palestinians as, terrorists and suicide bombers.
Posted by Drutch @ 07/17/2006 06:59 PM CST
Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/17/2006 09:49 PM CST
Updates and comments -
The "quality" of European reports can be understood from the fact that Hizbollah, listed by the EU as a terrorist organization, are consistently called "militants," whereas the brave fighters in Iraq afghanistan against British and American colonialist imperialism are called "terrorists." How's that for professionalism and objectivity??
The pictures of bombings over Beirut are spectacular. In a bombing raid of that intensity on a densely populated city one would expect thousands to die. How many civilians were killed in Falluja? How many were killed in Afghanistan? How many were killed in Allied bombings of Berlin? Yet only 130 people have been killed in all of Lebanon. One attack by your brave resistance fighters in Iraq today killed over 50 people. More people have been killed in Iraq in the same period then in Lebanon if I am not mistaken.
Moreover - consider that if Hizbollah is not stopped, then Iraq will look like a picnic. We will have bigger and better Iraqs in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Bahrain etc.
Since Israel is getting bombarded with rockets, mortars and whatnot, it would be incredibly stupid if Israel was only hitting civilians, and certainly moronic if Israel was only trying to hit civilians. It is beyond me how anyone could believe that.
Anyone who is for peace must understand - as long as the Hezbollah and the Hamas are in business there can be no peace in the Middle East, any more than there could be peace in Europe while the Nazis were in power.
Posted by Moderator @ 07/17/2006 10:50 PM CST
It is obvious that Israel is attacking legitimate targets.
They have essentially isolated hizbullah. They are taking out there places of "business". It is unfortunate that "civilians" and terrorists choose to live among each other.
I also question the numbers since the terrorists often look like "civillians".
Posted by The Truth @ 07/18/2006 01:39 AM CST
Let's not repeat the mistake of 67 andexpect to gain more from this war than is actually possible.
As for the comparison of the Hamas and the Hizballa to the Nazis. We should not expect Islamism to go in flames in one cataclysmic war the way the Nazis did. Stalinist Communism withered away through a long cold war, Spanish and Portugese fascism were contained for years and then ended, Nasserist Baathism in Egypt became slightly but significantly more moderate without an American invasion, the one intransigent PLO moved over the yearsof conflict into a more moderate (while still quite annoying) position, while other complex processes happen in other parts of the world, most of which I do not understand. I do not claim we should not fight the Hamas and the Hizballa when necessary, but I don't think we should not expect them to be elimanated in an all out war. If Israel had insisted on fighting its wars until the complete disarmament and surrender of its enemies, all its victories whould have been defeats. Nor should we fight wars to end all wars. There will be future confrontations. Lets just try for a better strategic balance of power instead. It was already shown that the Hamas can be pushed into a ceasefire by a combination of forces, and the Hizballa has been forced to limit its actions by Lebanese public pressure, even if not sufficiently. It might be possible to acheive even better limitations and a better ceasefire if Israel combines its use of force with other tools. An all for nothing fatalistic approach will get us nowhere.
Posted by Micha @ 07/18/2006 03:31 AM CST
It is interesting how Israel and world heads of state are reacting to the kidnapping of two soldiers, while the international community continutally ignores the on-going international violations of Israel by its incursions into Palestinian territory and its illegal detaining and torturing of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, not to mention other on-going human violations of the Occupation. They then blame Iran and Syria for the actions of frustrated civilians who join groups like Hamas and Hizbullah. Has everyone forgotten that the history of this conflict is more than a week old? Israel thinks it can destabalize these groups. Does it not occur to them that hard core military action such as we are seeing, will turn more moderates to extremism as the casualties of the usual inevitable victims - innocent civilians - increase.
Posted by Rose @ 07/18/2006 06:36 AM CST
Is it comparable the act of hamas & hezbolah with the act of Israell ?!!
Posted by john @ 07/18/2006 10:23 AM CST
It seems that nearly everyone in the whole world has totally missed the point completely. While the kidnapping of the two soldiers sparked this "war", we need to think back to why and what exactly is happening here. On one side, you got the pro Israelis "have a right to do what they are doing" and on the other side, you have "they are way over reacting" folks.
Fact of the matter is, both sides are right - in THIS case. But this conflict is not by any means a new conflict. The forced removal of the Arabs from the Palestine region in the late 1940s, and the refusal of their return would OBVIOUSLY be fresh in the minds of these Arabs.
Just imagine you and your family living in one place for generations and then all of sudden told to leave and not come back in order to make room for another group of people moving in? And if you don't go, you may be KILLED? Common sense, it won't be a smooth transition and it still isn't until THIS DAY. And where did the folks go if they couldn't stay? Syria, Jordan, and of course Lebanon. This is what people are forgetting. This is why everything is still going on. And this is what the conflict is really about - not just two kidnapped soldiers.
Israel have the rights to demand the release of their kidnapped soldiers and they have the right to react - although they hardly killed any Hezbollah members in their attacks anyways, mostly civilians. But thats what happens in conflicts and war. And the fact that Israel is 100% backed up by the world's superpower - the US and Britain as well as others, they definately feel they have the right to do whatever the hell they want.
And when Israel massacres Arab Palestinians, and kiddnap civilians and goverment officials, no one seems to care. But when the opposite happens, everyone rushes to Israel's side. Since governments of the surrounding Arab nations seem incompentant to handle the situation, terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah have risen make sure Israel don't sleep well at night. And while their brutal methods of suicide bombings is quite ludacrisly brutal, it's just about their only way of doing any damage to the Israel, since no else in the world seems to care.
Granted, Israel won the 1967 war against the pathetic Arabs strategic planning and many would say that it guarantees them their legitimacy in the area. But unless they totally eradicate every Arab Palestinians to the point of endangerment of the race, then conflict WILL CONTINUE because quite obviously, they aren't going to give up. Just look at what the headache the Native American Indians did to the white Americans for the past couple hundreds of years. Of course, they could just do what the Mongols did and kill everyone completely to prevent any future conflicts (since no opposition is left alive litterally). That would solve some problems too....but as much as they would want to, it would not make them look so well to the rest of the world.
So this is an old problem, not a new one. And until the UN can get their heads together and come up with a solution that can appeal to both Israel and Palestinians, there will be more fighting in the area and more people will die.
Posted by Dolomite @ 07/18/2006 05:58 PM CST
Posted by Rod Davies @ 07/18/2006 09:05 PM CST
It appears that you are the one who is seriously culturally il-informed. You are seriously suggesting that the Palestinians offer peace when they are the ones being killed and forced out of a territory they onced lived in? That they need to "request and beg" the Israelis to have their own homeland? Put it into your own perspective and think very clearly about whats wrong with that suggestions. Then maybe you'll understand why many of them would rather die that crawl on their knees and beg for their own homeland. War has not worked for the Palestinians, but its not like Israel is offering "peace" either.
Posted by Dolomite @ 07/18/2006 10:37 PM CST
The Israeli government is a disgust to the rest of the Jewish people. Their actions are without consideration and remorse for the fact that they have, with the use of military and terroristic approach concured lands and shoved Palestinian people asside like pawns for decades. They should infact be the ones to generous to the Palestinian people, thanking them in every regard for their meir megar existance on this planet. If it were not for the kindness of the Palestinians and for the shallow disregard of Jewish people by UK Isreal would have been a non existant nation. So you tell me who should be nice to whom...and who should give flower to who on the streets of this god forsaken place called Israel?
Posted by Marissa @ 07/19/2006 01:48 AM CST
Resolutions 1559 and 1560 were supposed to be for the benefit of Lebanon's security. It is a sick and twisted logic for Israel to invoke those resolutions to justify its savage assault on Lebanon's infrastructure, economy and its people. Ironically, it was Hizbollah that argued Resolutions 1559 and 1560 was a pretext for Israel, a point that ironically has been confirmed this past week.
Posted by Peter @ 07/19/2006 02:55 AM CST
i dont understand why the lebanon gov. does not send their own soldiers out to helpstop the terrorist attacks then ask for help. do they care if isreil's ciilian people die when they fire those missles into isarieles cities or town's?who is right?weher does it end? are we all goin to meet are maker soon?and fianly what about the kids?are we so stupid that we kill off the whole human race?...thanks for lettin me vent...peace to all
Posted by alex @ 07/19/2006 04:57 AM CST
To davies & Peter & Alex and ...
Posted by akbar @ 07/19/2006 12:29 PM CST
Depends whether you think they were forced, or they left, right? This thing can go around in circles forever as to who violated which UN resolution. Both sides have violated numerous ones.
Regardless, I don't see the moral imperative of returning land to people in the event of a lost war. Honestly, do you think if Israel would have lost the war in 1948 that the Arabs would let them #1 - stay on the land or #2 have their own country.
With that logic, Mexico officialy has claims to California, New Mexico, Arizona, and portions of Texas.
For the people arguing international law, we can look at the Geneva conventions:
The taking of hostages is prohibited.
Civilians must not be used to protect military installations or operations against attacks.
Civilians who commit an offense against an occupying power which does not include an attempt against the lives of members of the occupying force or administration, pose a grave collective danger, or seriously damage property or installations of the occupying power may only be punished by internment or imprisonment. (Convention IV, Art. 68)
However, other individuals, including civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)
Posted by David @ 07/19/2006 02:49 PM CST
Posted by akbar @ 07/19/2006 03:54 PM CST
>Honestly, do you think if Israel would have lost the
The forming of an Israeli state, no of course not. Let them stay on the land, YES. They didn't seem to have too much problem for several hundred years up until the 20th century.
>With that logic, Mexico officialy has claims to California, New Mexico, Arizona, and portions of Texas.
Heh, totally different situation. Mexico lost the war and officially SOLD the territory to the US. Texas broke away on their own. And the former Mexican residents in the territories were NOT killed or forced to leave, but allowed to keep their land and property and was granted full US citizenship. Now everyone is happy.
In contrast to the Palestine situation, which was "partitioned" away to form the state of Israel. For things like this to be official, everyone from both sides has to agree. Of course not everyone did, hence why we still have this problem. People are still not happy.
Posted by Dolomite @ 07/19/2006 06:01 PM CST
Dear leaders ,
Posted by mohamed @ 07/19/2006 09:30 PM CST
I agree with you. There will be no peace in the the Middle-East as long as Hezbollah and Hamas are free to reign terror on Israel. No amount of wishful thinking, negotiations, or concessions will give Israel the peace it desires.
The following, from Hebollah's 1985 manifesto is proof enough for me:
âWe see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.â
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/19/2006 11:32 PM CST
ok guys. Let me clarify to the entired democratic world some incontrovertible facts that they do NOT seem to comprehend in their overly liberal and Western "modern" thinking.
The extreme political terrorist organizations like Hizballah and Hamas want Israel destroyed. Period!!! Very simple!!! They will NOT rest until Israel is wiped off the face of the earth and they have their Palestinian autonomy over the entired Israeli territory.
They will use all tools at their disposal to ensure this happens. One is political manipulation and distribution of incorrect information. They will use the humanitarian angle as they have used for freaking years and years to consolidate support of the entired world behind their "noble" causes. They will say that Israel is aggressive. They will say Israel is not supplying enough food and water to the Palestinians that live in its borders. They will brainwash the entired democratic Western world with rediculous and unfounded claims such as these to ensure international sympathy towards these animals.
Lets look into the eyes of the truth for a second. The truth that the democratic world understands on some level, and yet would deny it in the hope the truth would go away.
Democracy thinks that if we improve the living conditions of these terrorist animals, and give them more land, they will stop the bombings and live happily ever after. They think that were the democratic world more kind to these beasts, everything would be OK. Hence, the democratic world believes that it is not the terrorists that are to blame, but us. Us, the westerners.
The problem is that we and them speak two different languages. They are primitive. They are way behind US on education and cultural development. The language they speak is BLOOD AND VIOLENCE!!! and Death!!! We speak the language of verbal negotiation under the assumption that they respect human life, that they care about peace, that we are dealing with people that share our beliefs and values. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And yet the Westterners continue to treat them as humans!!! and to negotiate with them!!! Why? Because they are afraid of them. They are afraid that if they don't negotiate, their country will start having unexpected train and building bombings. And the terrorists??? They know this. They feel it. Like any animal, they can sense fear. They can SMELL it!!!! And they take advantage of it!!! They gain support from us by making us afraid!!! Soon, very soon, this threat will grow, and their domination will gain power!!!
So...whats the solution?? Don't give them any fingers to begin with. Exterminate them!!! This is against democracy you say?? They don't understand democracy!!! Don't forget, they only understand violence, they value that basic instinct of war that we have been trying desparately to suppress in the Western culture. These beasts are, however smart enough to use the world of politics and modern media to make themselves look good. Don't listen to them!!! At their most basic level, they are, and will always remain terrorists, whose sole purpose is the undermine democracy, destroy peace, and to bring you us, those that DO believe in democracy, nothing but terror and fear!!! Because this is the only way they will dominate!! They will use our own fear against us.
Lets talk about what is happening in the Middle East for a second. Why is the world surprised that Israel invaded Lebanon?? The freaking hizballah sneaked onto Israeli terrotory and kidnapped israeli soldiers for Christ Sakes!!!! Of course Israel would retaliate!!!!! Israel is a very small country!! We are talking about 6 million Jews in the midst of 300 million Arabs!!! Israel has to stay strong!!! Israel has to protect itself and Israel has to employ extreme measures to do so!!! Otherwise, it will perish!!! The threat around it is too big. There are just too many freeaking Arabs around this tiny country that want it destroyed and wiped off the face of the earth!!! Arabs that don't understand anything but violence!!!
So, the take home message:
1. To the Westerners, the democrats, the liberals, the civilized, I say..WAKE UP AND SMELL THE TERRORISTS!!! THE STENCH IS ENORMOUS!! IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO SMELL..
2. To all the Al-Qaida, and the rest of the Arab terrorists in this world, I say..SCREW YOU!!! YOU ARE BENEATH US!! AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE..
Posted by Daniel @ 07/19/2006 11:36 PM CST
A few questions for you:
(1) If there was any question in the early days of Operation Just Reward that Israel is intentionally hitting civilian targets, there is no question now. It is bombing Maronite and Sunni areas that have no plausible connection to Hizbollah whatsoever. Do you have any moral qualms about this? And what do you think Dan Halutz had in mind when he talked about turning the clock back in Lebanon 20 years?
(2) Is it really true that Israel has no choice but to attack civilian targets, since Hizbollah hides among civilians? Israel has attacked Hizbollah's military targets in the past. What's the difference now? Isn't is possible that Israel's real motivation for avoiding Hizbollah's military targets now is that wants to minimize opportunities for Hizbollah to score yet another military victory against the IDF?
(3) You say that "If the Hezbollah are allowed to attack soldiers, then Israel is at war with Lebanon, and Israel is allowed to retaliate against any and all targets that it considers to be strategic." Did you know that IDF troops have repeatedly crossed into Lebanon to attack Hizbollah tropps and fly over Lebanese airspace since 2000? By that logic, isn't Hizbollah "allowed to retaliate against any and all targets that it considers to be strategic"?
(4) Even if it were true that Hizbollah's attack was an unprovoked act of war, couldn't there have been other means of getting the hostages back without launching an all-out war against Lebanon? Couldn't, for example, at least Israel have given the Lebanese government some time to return the soldiers before attacking Lebanon?
(5) Do concepts of deterrence have any relevance to Israel? For example... Israel has F-16's to defend itself against aggression by Hizbollah and Hizbollah has rockets to defend itself from aggression by Israel. Or does only Israel have a right to defend itself?
You may find it outrageous that I am comparing Israel to Hizbollah. Yet most of Lebanon's Shiite population believes that Hizbollah's disarmament would give Israel license to commit further aggression against Lebanon.
(6) You take Lebanon to task for not implementing Resolution 1559 and 1680. It is really surprising that, in a heavily fragmented country, still vulnerable to outside influence, a lightly armed (and mostly Muslim) army would find it reluctant to disarm a powerful milita that's supported by (at least) 40% of Lebanon's population?
Moreover, you ignore the premise behind Resolution 1559: That Lebanon needed to disarm its militias in order to achive its stability. How does a resolution intended to bring stability to Lebanon become a license to Israel (in violation of over 30+ UN Security Council resolutions itself) to bomb Lebanon back to the stone ages?
(7) You rightfully worry about the rise of extremism in Lebanon, Palestine or the rest of the Arab world. Do you think Israel's invasions of Gaza and Lebanon strengthen or weaken that trend?
Look forward to your reply.
Posted by Peter H @ 07/20/2006 03:20 AM CST
just a few thoughts
Posted by scott @ 07/20/2006 04:38 PM CST
Some answers to Peter's questions:
1- Attacks on Maronites and Sunnis - if it is true and intentional then of course it is not wise to say the least. Contrary to what you might think I am not plugged in to the Israeli military and don't know the details. (Right wing Zionists similarly think I get my "orders" from Damascus or Tehran, but that is not true either). Israeli planes dropped leaflets on Wednesday warning people to leave the south because they would be bombing. It is hard for people to leave because the roads are messed up, and because, according to IDF, the Hezbollah are preventing people from leaving. Setting the clock back 20 years refers to the Israeli occupation period apparently. You will have to ask Halutz about that.
2- The claim that Israel is afraid to engage Hezbollah is irrelevant, since Hezbollah can do nothing to Israeli aircraft. The problem is to find Hezbollah. IAF attacks launcher crews, but these are mobile and hard to find. It is much easier to attack permanent bases and storage centers of rockets.
3- Israel has defended itself and responded to Lebanese border incursions in a "proportionate" way in the past. That is what you are referring to in your #3. Lebanon has been consistently in violation of UN resolutions 1559 and 1680, and the latest result was visible in this kidnapping.
4- The Israeli operation did not begin immediately-only pursuit The Lebanese government evinced no willingness whatever to return the hostages, not at the time of the attack, and not afterwards. There was no announcement of apology and no announcement that they would get the hostages back. It was necessary to begin the operation ASAP to prevent Hezbollah from removing the hostages to Iran as they did with Ron Arad, who has apparently been murdered.
5- The equivalence of rockets and F-16s is questionable. Israel did not attack Lebanon first. "Defense" does not include unprovoked shelling of civilians. You forget that the kidnapping ambush was accompanied by a barrage of Katyusha rockets. The rockets are not weapons that can be used to defend against anything, since they can only be used to kill civilian population, Arabs and Jews, indiscriminately. They are only terror weapons. In WW II, everyone understood this. Some people like you seem to have forgotten.
6- It seems that you will invoke international law and UN resolutions when convenient and ignore them when it is not convenient. The resolutions were not meant to promote "Stability." Lebanon under Syrian occupation was "stable." Hitler's Germany was "stable" too. So what? They resolutions were meant to promote democratic and independent government in Lebanon, which is not possible while there is an armed militia. I do not see that non-implementation of the UN resolutions has promoted "stability" - except by assassination of everyone who doesn't agree with Syria and Hezbollah. That is apparently what you support.
7- Extremism - there is no doubt that the British declaration of war on Germany in 1939 strengthened "extremism" in that country, but it was unavoidable.
I will add something that you seem to fail to understand or do not want to understand. The Lebanese government supports Hezbollah. That government may not be representative of Lebanon, but it is the government they have now. President Lahoud said that the State and the cabinet are behind the Hezbollah completely. Therefore there is no difference between Hezbollah and Lebanon.
For Scott who wrote:
Posted by Moderator @ 07/20/2006 06:23 PM CST
This morning I watched a report by Jim Maceda of NBC news somewhere along the Syria/Lebanon border. Not surprisingly he found that the overwhelming majoity of those leaving the fighting were Lebanese. What he did find suprising was, contrary to the media mythology floating around, that there is far more popular support in Lebanon than our media have wanted us to believe.
That's far truer than the government of Lebanon and many Lebanese want the rest of the world to know.
One of the questions I asked early on was, "Why didn't the Lebanese government ever ask for international help to get rid of Hezbollah?" They claimed they didn't want Hezbollah, but were too weak to deal with them, but only asked for international help when Israel responded to an act of war.
As much as I regret the loss of life, I see that the only choice Israel had was to fight back. Those who say that a negotiated settlement would work are pulling against the thread of Middle-East history.
I know that there are a large number of Christians living in Lebanon. I share a common faith with them. But I cannot in good conscience support any settlement that would continue to leave Israel at the mercy of terrorists any more than my father and mother's generation could support a negotiated settlement with Adolf Hitler because there were many Christians living in Germany and the rest of subjugated Europe.
There are some very important things at stake here, with the principle two being the right for Israel to exist within secure borders without fear of terror and the more fundamental right of the Jewish people to life itself. Hezbollah and Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and the death of every Jew in the Middle-East. The battle lines have been clearly drawn. Israel is in the right. I pray that in the end they achieve the just victory over terror.
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/20/2006 06:51 PM CST
After browsing through the comments to this post I am moved to make several observations.
Posted by cobaltblu @ 07/20/2006 11:27 PM CST
OK -- let me take a different track. I realize you are in a wartime atmosphere and perhaps the best response would be to de-escalate things. So let me approach this at a different angle.
Like most of Israel, you are absolutely convinced that last week's kidnapping was an "act of war" that gave Israel no choice but to respond with nothing but unrestrained, maximum force, concepts like proportionality or the Geneva Convention be damned. As if last week was the first time in the history of the world that a militia in one country has crossed the border and attacked military forces in another country.
Actually...cross-border attacks occur all the time, all over the world. Look at the Kurdistan-Turkey-Syria borders, or the Russia-Georgia border, or India-Sri Lanka, etc. For example, PKK rebels cross over from Iraqi Kurdistan all the time to carry out attacks in Turkey. Crossing over into Kurdistan to pursue the PKK rebels would be an appropriate response. Launching a war to destroy the Iraqi Republic and dismembering its Kurdish community would not be.
Second, you are under the assumption that Israel has no alternative to what it's doing now because Hizbollah is committed to Israel's destruction. I do not deny that Hizbollah wants to destroy Israel. Does that mean it poses an existential threat to Israel? Only to the extent that Israel treats it that way. Hizbollah thrives on conflict with Israel. The more Israel escalates each incident with Hizbollah, the more it gives Hizbollah an opportunity to escalate in response. Treat a cross-border operation like the start of World War III, and that's exactly what it will become.
That doesn't mean turning the other cheek to Hizbollah. It does mean responding to Hizbollah's attacks in a measured and restrained way, avoiding disproportionate responses that only fuel the conflict. Hizbollah could not have survived if it didn't understand concepts like deterrence and balance of fear.
As analysts like Uri Avnery and Henry Siegman have argued, the best way to neutralize Hizbollah is for Israel to make a just peace with the Palestinians. What if Israel offered to hold an international peace conference with any Arab government (including the Palestinian Authority) that accepted its right to live within pre-1967 borders in exchange for a Palestinian state in all of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem?
An issue that canât be left out is the mindset of the IDF. Why is it that the case of both Gaza and Lebanon, the IDF has responded so much more severely to the kidnapping of soldiers than to terrorist attacks on civilians? Does it have something to do with how the IDF is still smarting from its defeat to Hizbollah to 2000? With how Hizbollah continues to inflict one humiliating victory on the IDF after another? Is is possible that just as Hizbollah craves conflict for conflictâs sake, there are Generals within the IDF who have no less a thirst for war ?
Posted by Peter H @ 07/21/2006 01:10 AM CST
Your commentary reads a lot like the lectures Back Bay parents give their kids. "If you wouldn't provoke him he'd leave you alone." Or, it sounds a lot like the words of a Florida judge to a woman who had been raped." He told her that under the circumstances the best thing she could have done was to relax and enjoy it. Or it sounds like the rambling discourse Michael Dukakis gave in a presidential debate when he was asked whether he would support the death penalty for the person who, hypothetically, had murdered his wife Kitty. All America got from him was a rambling discourse about crime statistics and legislation. From that point on America diubbed him the "ice man."
You "voice of reason" sounds like absolute insanity to me.
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/21/2006 02:47 PM CST
The problem with the middle east is an underlying reason. The problem is IGNORANCE AND DISHONESTY. Let me start with the Jews, God does not give land to anyone period. God does not favor anyone period. The Jews are still waiting for there Messiah for 6000 years. Keep waiting. The moslims claim the middle east is their land because a military commander named Mohammed said that he had communication with God through angel Gabriel in a cave. Lie, Lie, Lie. If you as a human do not have common sense and logic then you are not even close to communicating with God, if he does exist. God created the human brain to THINK,and not to just accept things blindly. For both moslims and jews in the world, make sure God is REALLY SPEAKING TO YOU BEFORE YOU ACT because once you die and meet God, you will realize that you never talked to Him or recieved messages from him. God does not play favors, I don't need God to tell me that. It is common sense. If God favors anyone over someone else, then he is not a good God. The Jews must understand that God loves the leader of Hizbullah as much as their president. God loves a prostitute and a serial killer as much as anyone else. So think really deeply before you act because even if Isreal or the Muslims win the war and take over the Middle East, you will ALL DIE one day, and then you will be naked with no land, money, or military in the face of God. You want to lie to yourself and just pretend that you are having faith in the Torah, Koran or the Bible, keep it up. Faith is not just ACCEPTING BLINDLY. Use your brains. Every single true prophet in history claimed direct communication with God, through miracles. And if they were lying, then there is no God, period. Next time you pray, sit there and ask yourself if the invisible air around you is really talking back. When you pray and say something to God, pause and wait for him to REALLY SPEAK BACK TO YOU. Physical communication, not some bullcrap communication through feelings, emotions, or the heart. Wait for REAL communication, just as he did with the prophets. So before you say to yourself that you are free of sin, and that God favors you, make sure that you are really communicating with God, and not just filling your head with lies. Question EVERYTHING. Question, the bible, the koran, evolution, torah. EVERYTHING. Do not just accept something blindly, that is not faith, it is STUPIDITY.
Posted by JOHN @ 07/21/2006 05:37 PM CST
I must have misread Ami's peace. I didn't realize it was a theological treatise.
From what I read in your comment I am making a leap of faith and assume that either a theist or Christian. Myself, I'm a Christian, with a graduate degree in Christian theology, and I find your commentary offensive.
The issue on the table is Israel's right to exist as a state among the nations. As a Christian, I support that right. If the time comes for a theological discussion with Ami Isseroff or or others on Midle East Web, I believe it can, and should, be conducted with the dignity and respect the subject deserves.
I find it unfortunate that you chose to act in the manner you did. I doubt that you'd show any willingness to apologize for your offense, so I will apologize for you.
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/21/2006 07:24 PM CST
The reason you got "offended" is because the TRUTH DISTURBS people. If you are an honest man Phil, than you wouldn't get offended, you would just feel sorry for me. Just look back at your history, and ask yourself how you became Christian, then you will see that you have just accepted it blindly. If Jesus's message was just to accept things blindly, then I understand how you recieved your PHD. Now for the facts. Jesus was abused, spit on, tortured and beat up for the same reasons that exist in human nature as they do today in human nature. The reason people act the way they do, such as Isrealis and Arabs, are the same reasons that existed in the humans surrounding Jesus when he was crucified. The issue at hand in the middle east is religious becuase of original sin. Original sin is in everyone, including my self, but to step out of it slowly you must start to think. Thinking is the only weapon humans have to find peace. As for Isreal's right to exist, sorry to say that right did not come from God, it came from the United Nations in 1948. Because sir, if you are saying they recieved that right from God, then logically you are also defending the rights of muslims to claim that land because the SAME God they believe in also promised that land as their holy land in their religion. Once again you demonstrate the closed mentality that was observed in the Jews and the Romans and others when they crucified Jesus. Everyone THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT ON THE ISSUE OF RELIGION. How many times in the new testament was Jesus accused of blasmephey when in fact he was just stating the TRUTH. So as people get disturbed then, you get disturbed now whey you hear the TRUTH.
Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 01:46 AM CST
I don't feel sorry for you. I try to give any man more dignity than that.
I didn't accuse you of blasphemy. I said you were being offensive and I stand by what I said.
Nowhere in Ami's piece or my response did anyone make theological claims on the part of the Jewish people. The land in question that Israel inhabits is theirs in the same way my property is mine. The registrar of deeds, the mortgage company, and my neighbors all recognize that 919 Neosho, Emporia, Kansas belongs to me. Since 1948 the international community has recognized Israel's right to the land they inhabit in the same manner.
By the way, much of the land "given" to Israel was actually purchased (see Alan Derschowitz's "The Case for Israel). From the middle of the 19th century till the early 20th absentee Arab landlords were selling huge parcels to of the land that Hezbollah now claims to be stolen to Jewish settlers. They actually sold it because they didn't believe it was valuable at all. Since that time Israel has done nothing to it but build a vibrant national vineyard in what was once deemed to be a wasteland.
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/22/2006 03:22 AM CST
Mr. Phil, please do not get into book discussions, I've read my share. If you are sending me a source on how Isreal bought their land, I will answer that with two responses. First, I will use common sense. If you bought your home next to me fair and square in the USA, then we become neighbors. I highly doubt that is what happened. If Isreal really purchased these lands as good willed reasonable neighbors, there would not be any problem. So the fact that there was a problem and a dispute over land means that what you and Mr. Alan Derschowitz's states are LIES. Once againg the difference between common sense and just accepting what you read based on your Chrisian biases is obvious. For every book you can provide me, I can assure you there are just as many books with different points of views. Out of the entire world Isreal chose to purchase that land, why? Not because of religion, yeah right? Please read what I type before you response, because that does offend me. I never said you accused me of blasphemy, so please reread the last two sentences of my previous response. You say I am being offensive. Ok, make sure you read this part. Jesus was found to be offensive with some of his words. In John chapter 6, when he is disclosing the meaning of the "bread of life", many jews and others found that to be offensive and just left him. Then he turned to his disciples and asked if they would leave too. That is just one example. Try this one, let us pretend that Mohammed and Jesus would meet one day in the past. Are you trying to tell me that one of them would eventually not get offended. Think about it. Many Christians in the past were found to be offensive to their neighbors because their neighbors thought that they were cannibals, when in fact they were just practicing communion and eating Jesus's flesh and drink his blood. So I am not worried WHO gets offended by what I say. I love truth. And truth disturbs, just as I got disturbed when I heard truth in my past. It doesnt' matter whether you or Ami did not make theological claims. You both know that the underlying issue of all crime, stealing, killing, pride, lying and many other problems of the world exist because of humans being lost and confused on what we are and where we came from. Religion and human origins wether consiously or subconsiously dictate human action. The same reason you support the state of Isreal because you are a Christian is the same reason Muslims support arab nations like Syria and Iraq and the persian nation of Iran. So please do not tell me that this is not related to religion when EVERYTHING is related to religion and the existence or non-existence of God. I can give you examples to fill many books. Abortion, Capital punishment, recent veto by President Bush on stem cell research, suicide bombers, and yes the Isreal and Palestine issue is ALL RELATED TO RELIGION. I am sure that Jesus conducted himself with dignity and respect when he got pissed of at the temple because they were misusing the temple for money and other things that did not belong there. He got mad and yelled and threw things and other actions that I am sure people did not think he did that with "dignity and respect" as was stated in your response. Mr. Phil would you admit that you are wrong being a Chrisian? That was a rhetorical question. I know your answer is no. I asked that because I wonder how the leader of Hisbolah would answer to me asking him if he is wrong about his muslim views. In the same manner, the Jews that turned Jesus over to the Romans COULD NEVER BE CONVINCED THAT HE WAS SPEAKING THE TRUTH. So once again the problem of human external problems exist because the human is lost, confused, ignorant and dishonest at levels that we cannot even tell. Humans including you and your graduate degree in theology, is under the same original sin of being pridefull and not humble. For the most part, my interviews with Sheiks, Jewish leaders, hindu philosiphers, Christian ministers and theologians alway lead to the same uneventfull unfruitfull result, which is that each individual places what they WANT God to be like and they place Him in their pocket speaking of Him as if they know exactly what He wants. That is exactly why Jesus was crucified. Jesus was saying things that people did not and could not bear hearing. The Truth. Funny I am not even a Christian, and I know more about your religion than you do. Now I will admit I am wrong on every single point I have discussed if you will teach me otherwise. Just make sure you prove it with real intellectual disscussions and not just qoute other minds. Quote your mind and your reasoning.
Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 05:29 AM CST
Daniel if you see this, please read my comments, I have listed about 3 or 4. Read them because you are in danger of becoming a TERRORIST YOURSELF. You are closeminded. Closeminded causes ignorance which leads to stupidity which leads to many bad things. You are beneath terrorists because the difference between you and terrorists is that at least the terroists are more brave than you are. Go over there yourself and start fighting. YES YOU GO AND START FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY AND FIGHT THE NEANDROTHOLS. Want to bet you will never go. You know why? Because you are sitting at home behind nuclear weapons, tanks, and very powerfull armies. I guarantee that you and your dumb ancestors are just a stupid as terrorists. For example, I am a US citizen and I know about my country's history. Are you saying that the US population does not commit violent acts that are worse or just as bad as terrorists actions. Where do you want me to begin. I won't read a book for once and study the many inhumane actions of our history and all of people from all over the Earth. Everyone including yourself have done wrong. What a terrorist does in the middle east is equivalent to what you do when you cheat on your wife. What a terrorist does in the middle east is equal to what we did to the poor inocent native indians. What terrorists do in the middle east is equal to what the US people living in New Orleans did after Katrina. So let's be clear on one thing before you insult others, take a good look at your self mister perfect.
Posted by johm @ 07/22/2006 06:01 AM CST
Ami, I quoted the only passage in your post that is worth talking about.
Ami typed the following:
It seems that US Secretary of State Rice is clear as mud on this issue. On the one hand:
We have said to Prime Minister Olmert and to other Israelis that we are deeply concerned about the effect on innocent civilians, and would hope that Israel would be mindful of, and restrained in, its operations so that the innocent civilians do not suffer -- innocent civilian casualties, civilian infrastructure -- and so that the Lebanese government, which is a good and democratic and, in fact, young"
Ami there are no innocent civilians. I do not buy into all that propaganda. Jews living in Isreal are just as guilty as the soldiers. Muslims living in Lebanon are just as guilty as Lebanese people. So Isreal should not have to worry about killing civilians, because they agree with Hizbolah. By the same token every Jew deserves a rocket because 90 percent of public opinion supports the attack on Lebanon. So please spare me your mercy talk and your show of GOOD WILL. You have no good will. Terrorists present terror because it is the only thing they have. If terrorists had the military of Isreal, then they wouldn't have suicide bombers. Isreal would have suicide bombers. Ami you wonder what could be done; NOTHING. No matter what, the stronger will prevail. In this case Isreal is stronger, but please do not make this out to be a moral judgement on the part of the US and Isreal because that is pathetic. Isreal is watching out for its self interests in land and religion, just as Hizbolah. There is no moral right or wrong between both sides, just let the strong take advantage of the weak as the case in all of human history, and just stay quite with your moral judgements on why the actions of Isreal are justified. They are not justified. Hisbolah is not justified, actually you know what I can't even remember the last time a state or a nation on the face of the Earth did something that was truly JUSTIFIED. Justified is in the eyes of the beholder. Ami you obviously side with Isreal. Thats it you side with Isreal, nothing else. They are also criminals. They kill people just like the suicide bombers and hizbolah. Do not talk about selfdefense because then who is really selfdefending. You say Isreal is in selfdefense, well others will say Palestine and the arab nations are in self defense because the aggressors are Isreal. They never existed before 1948. So if you look at it that way then the real terrorists are the jews who invaded arab land in 1948 and were the aggressors for over 50 years. Then we can go back further in history and say that the romans are the aggressors because they conquered the area. In history we have other aggressors, arabs, Christians, Crusades, Muslimes, Jews, Romans, everyone at one time or another claimed self defense because there is always an aggressor.
Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 07:11 AM CST
Upon reading John's comments I'm getting more insight into what Isreal is dealing with right now.
There's nothing else that I can say that would move our discussion in the right direction.
Posted by Phil Dillon @ 07/22/2006 03:03 PM CST
Thank you for your short response, I didn't feel like going to the toilet again, so thankyou Ami.
Posted by john @ 07/22/2006 04:08 PM CST
Israel. If she wasn't by far the strongest military force in the region, does anyone who is intellectually honest believe there would be one Jew left alive in Israel or the so-called Occupied Territories? The very charter of Hamas explicity calls for the destruction of Israel at the sword's edge of Jihad. Anyone who has kept abreast of Jihadist websites from Iran to Syria to Lebanon to 'Palestine' will have read or be able to read of the theology and ideology of fascist rhetoric that describes the Jew as a monkey and asks that he been drowned in the sea. How can any society that believes it has a right to call for, fund and despatch suicide bombers be they in London or Tel Aviv at once believe they should not be crushed? So what that Hamas is democratically elected? All that shows is that a terror organisation can come to power. It is failure of democracy - not a triumph. Is a terrorist organisation suddenly not one simply because it is elected? Does a terrorist become less of a terrorist because he has been given a mandate for terror by the people he lives amongst? No. The terrorist must be stopped and the people who elected him must accept responsibility for bringing him to power. When the President of Iran repeatedly calls for Israel's destruction and when this most poisonous of states shares a bed of snakes with Syria to bring the terror of Hezbollah to both Israel and Lebanon, how can any force aimed at eradicating this threat to civilisation be deemed disproportionate? No matter what the force - these are all terrorists and they must be stopped. Make no mistake about it, we are not fooled as easily as the sickly liberal apologists for terrorists pitted in their deadly fight against Israel that report the news in France or Britain whilst at the same time mourning the dead of 7/7 in London or 9/11 in New York.
Posted by andy z @ 07/22/2006 08:34 PM CST
And there is more. I have heard the liberal establishment in the the UK - be they politicians or commentators - in recent days claiming that Israel's military actions will destoy the democratic functioning of Lebanon and leave a power vaccuum in which Syria and 'militant' (should read 'terror') groups will grow. How blind these people are. Syria and the terrorists - and of course Iran - ALREADY control Lebanon. The Lebanese army is impotent, its democrats clay to be moulded and shaped in the ways of Jihad at the deadly hands of the Ayatollahs and their groupees. Hezbollah , alongside Al Qaeda and Hamas, have only two agendas and neither one has anything to do with peace or peace treaties. Firstly, these groups aim to eradicate the Zionist State and its people. Actually annihilate is the more accurate term. They wish to impose their own brand of quasi-Nazi 'final solution' on the Jewish people and their homeland. Secondly, these terrorists and their State sponsors - Iran and Syria - wish to bring Jihad - and in its wake Islamic sharia law - to the infidel world through terror and coercion and murder. They recognise no borders and respect no other way of life. No compromise. In the face of this, this present and absolute threat to the very essence of what makes man civilised and dignified, we should thank Israel and its allies a million times over for having the strength and courage to confront these terrorists and their sick credo. When Londoners are slaughtered on the Tube or Spaniards die on trains, remember - Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran, Syria, all of these and more would willingly send their children to their deaths as suicide bombers and then glorify them in the grave. If they could, right now, these terrorists would slaughter the very last one of us to stand in opposition to their warped vision of the world. Thank G-d for Israel. May G-d grant her soldiers and people protection and victory. May G-d bring peace.
Posted by andy z @ 07/23/2006 02:07 PM CST
Andy, your quote, "Israel. If she wasn't by far the strongest military
Posted by john @ 07/23/2006 08:03 PM CST
Andy one more thing, why do you type G-d instead of God? Your are an idiot, you think God gets offended by not typing in a simple letter an the letter "o", is God that stupid. Listen if God is that annoyed about things, I am sure he is more annoyed by more important things in the world than an dumb jew like yourself afraid of typing something. Watch this, God you are a moron. See, he doesn't punish me. God is a little smarter than what you make him out to be. Ignorant people like yourself are the main reasons for the middle east problems. The same narrow point of veiw that you have about your Jewish Faith, is the same narrow veiw that the Hizbollah leader has. Both of you represent the lowest levels of human intellect and dishonesty. You know that you and the leader of Hizbollah would never agree because you both claim you communicate with God, but God doesnt recognize either one of you, because the greatest organ that God created is your brains, but you both do not use it. Like I said, it is stupid religious people like yourself and muslim and christian fanatics that cause problems. Look at history and you will find that most destructiveness was caused in the name of god that you speak of. Not all, but most.
Posted by john @ 07/23/2006 08:22 PM CST
It seems the whole world has an opinion on how Israel should live and govern their land. And usually those people are writing from the comforts of their safe dwellings. This attack that was instigated by Hezbollah! Tomorrow it will be Hamas? How much should they take? A wall in north Israel won't stop it! They are doing the only thing they can. War is mean and hurts innocent people on both sides! But thats war! I hate war but sometimes it has to happen for long term peace. If we are to blame a group blame the useless UN for not following up on the resolutions it implememted!
Posted by the road map @ 07/23/2006 10:12 PM CST
One thing is certain, war rarely produces truths that are accepted as such by both sides, hence the fact that either side sees events differently from the other.Reports from either should be treated with the susual scepticism although I do have a preference for statistics simply reported (Israel) than those screamed out along with clamours for vengeance and blood ( have a guess). War also precludes the niceties so demanded of those whose experience of war is confined to televised bouts between nations.There is no nice way of conducting war, that much we can agree on surely, whatever our distaste for violence and destruction.
I can't help feeling that we are watching a two tier action going on here. On the one hand there is what appears to be an alarming complicity between Isreal and much of the rest of the world's political masters - clearly there is an agenda there, while on the other there is the tragic destruction of a peaceful nation whose people have done nothing to deserve this fate except to live under a government that couldn't deal with Hezbollah. The fact of the former is that it seems all agree( shown in whatever way best suits their alliances in thne region), the latter is necessary in order to rid the region of a parasitic infection, one that is the militant arm of Iranian foriegn policy and regional ambitions. Hezbollah is about far more than just the destruction of Israel, it is about Amadinajad's napoleonic strutting and desire for power across the Arab world and acclaim throughout Islam. The west knows this, moderate Arab nations know this, Arab nations allied to the US know this, The US especially knows this, and yet what assistance was Lebanon given except some UN resolution oft quoted but typically not acted upon? Israel is doing the dirty work because no-one else has the guts.
AS an aside, I often see villagers and locals express happiness to have Hezbollah terrorists amongst them. Frankly I think the stockholm syndrome extends far beyond kidnap hostages in western bank raids etc. I certainly wouldn't want to be a southern Lebanese villager whose opposition to having Hezbollah militants in his village or Hezbollah missiles stored in his barn was made public knowledge.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 12:48 AM CST
Dirty , work, that is funny. You make it seem that Isreal is doing this for the rest of the world. Wow, Mother Teresa in the making. NO, Isreal is doing this because they CAN. Why? Because if Syria and Lebanon had nuclear weapons or some kind of deterent, then Isreal would just take the rockets up their ass. They wouldn't do ANYTHING. But, it doesn't matter, Isreal is stronger so let them do what ever they want. There is one thing Mr. Misrahi, what you typed, "Hezbollah is about far more than just the destruction of Israel, it is about Amadinajad's napoleonic strutting and desire for power across the Arab world and acclaim throughout Islam," I am tired of stupid comments like this by Isrealis. That statment is equivalent to Puerto Rico all of a sudden having some little militia, and then saying that they want to take over the United States. WILL NOT HAPPEN. I am tired of people trying to make Isreal seem victimized all the time. Hizbollah has NO CHANCE OF DESTROYING Isreal. If they want power across the Arab world, then that is none of your bussiness. The arabs don't attack the United States because they don't want president Bush to have more power. What I have noticed is that when a democratic country kills people it is called and deemed NECESSARY, but when any form of government that is not democratic kills people it is deemed TERRORISM. Just like some Christians, all they have to do is accept Jesus Christ as their saviour, then they are free to kill, steal, rape and do what ever they please because they are going to heaven. Just because a country is democratic, like Isreal and the U.S. does not give them the right to behave in any matter that they please. Hizbollah kidnapped two soldiers and fired a few rockets, then Isreal should kidnapp a few soldiers and fire a few rockets. I can logically take a step further with my analogy to Puerto Rico, if Puerto Rico assembled a similiar militia and go into the mainland U.S. and do exactly what Hizbollah do, should the United States drop nuclear weaponry on the small island. Isreal should have just dropped one nuclear weapon because it is equivalent to the destruction they are causing in Lebanon. Now, for religion, for every comment I hear about Islamic Fundamentalism, I see the same bullcrap fundamentalism in the religion of Judaism, and Christianity. They are no different. If anything the muslim fundamentalists are more outspoken, while the jewish christian faith is more deceitfull and sneaky. What the muslim fundamentalists say out in the open, the jewish christian fundamentalists simply are sneaky about it. They work their propaganda through lies. For example, strategic targeting of Lebanon was claimed by Isreal, and the 300 civilians that died are simply used as human shields, then Isreal says, what are we supposed to do. Ok, so if there is one hizbollah fighter between 20 civilians, then it is ok to go ahead and drop the bomb, right? Funny, that is the SAME THING that terrorists do, bomb 20 civilians. So if there is an Isreali soldier on a bus full of civilians, then it is ok for a suicide bomber to destroy the bus to kill the ONE ISREALI SOLDIER plus the Isreali civilians. See the logic. If you don't see the logic, then you are a religious jewish and christian fundamentalist who will bend the truth of 2 + 2 = 4, you are simply being fundamentalist liars. Now if you see the logic of the analogies that I gave you , then you might have a successfull future in THINKING INTELLECTUALLY, and you might really find the true God one day. Isrealis are terrorists, period.
Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 04:17 PM CST
my apologies again Zed Misrahi, I thought you were a DUMB JEW.
Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 09:28 PM CST
Roadmap, read a little history before you just blabber crap. Your hate war, then you shouldn't justify it for ANY REASON. Isreal can do many things, first, as they claim they are a God loving nation, they can start by being a little bit more moral and not having disproportionate fights. Their pride is ridiculous. Hizbolah captured two soldiers then Isreal should be a little smart and ask themselves WHY DID HIZBOLAH CAPTURE 2 SOLDIERS???? Hisbollah and their regime are STUPID. That said, why belittle your intelligence and play to their stupidity by killing many more stupid people. What Isreal should have done is to try to make themselves a little more responsible ( being the superpower) in that region and tried to negotiate the return of the soldiers. They are stupid, even if negotiations didn't work, bombing Lebanon will not work. Now Isreal is placing the two soldiers even more at risk. See Isreal isn't really worried about the two soldiers, they are worried about an eye for an eye. Revenge. That is all they want. Now here are the results, two probably dead soldiers that were kidnapped, and many more dead fighting with Hizbollah. And, now I am sure hizbollah will have many more recruits available from many labenese men. Now I know and see that jews all over the world did not learn there lesson from the holocaust because if they did they would feel the tremendous suffering of the civilians in lebanon. They don't. The truth of who Isreal really is will come out in the future. They are nothing more than a stupid faith that follows stupid torah which will never see their messiah. If the messiah did show up, it was Jesus, who showed and displayed love. But of course the same jews that turned him over to the romans are still living in isreal banging their heads against walls and looking stupid. Muslim fanatics and christian fanatics, you are all just as dumb as these jews.
Posted by john @ 07/24/2006 10:11 PM CST
Make no mistake, Israel is doing what it does because it can. LOL. However I think you would have to agree that is does what it can because it must; it exists, it isn't accepted in the region and is attacked because of it and because of the evil that Israel is deemed to have perpetrated in order to exist and maintain that existance. There is a sort of chicken and egg thing going on that is best forgotten about if you want any sensible solution to ntoday's realities rather than an arguement that lasts all the way to that time when we are all finally cutting figure eights across the newly formed ice of hell.
Palestinians need hope and prosperity, the longer they think in terms of their 'humiliation' being fully accounted for, the longer their humiliation will last. Where is the brave soul that will finally do what Arafat and his personal banker baulked at when they realised that peace spelt an end to the gravy train? The one that will finally sign on the dotted line with real comitment and take the Palestinian people into the future they so badly need after the past they have sadly been as complicit in as much as anyone else. Pelsetine has always been a pawn in a game often played all around them rather than totally for them, it's time they took matters into their own hands and thought of themsleves first and the Pan Arab ambitions of vain men last.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/24/2006 10:46 PM CST
LMAO Ron Davies, what a tard you are. Sure, a Palestinian hands a flower to an Isreali soldier and gets a bullet in the head, mission accomplished, eh? Sure tell that to the Palestinians that were being sniped for their "evil deeds" (tending to their olives) by the squatters.
Posted by OMFG @ 07/25/2006 01:57 AM CST
Thank you to Ami and some of the others for an interesting discussion, that unfortunately is too often interrupted by slaggers with nothing to say. I simply wish to add two facts that should be part of any discussion of this problem.
Posted by Richard Bronstein @ 07/25/2006 08:55 AM CST
Mr. Bronstein, you wrote,
"While I could support that idea, and so could many Israelis, what few in the world can support is the intolerant, racist world view of the jihadist faction of Islam."
This is propaganda, watch this:
"While I could support that idea, and so could many Arabs, what few in the world can support is the intolerant, racist world view of the Fundamentalist faction of the Jewish Faith in Isreal.
Many, many, many millions of Arabs, and EUROPEANS, would agree with my version of your propaganda. If you have nothing intellectual to say, other than repeating words from CNN, then please just stay quite for the benefit of intellectuals. Thank you.
Posted by john @ 07/25/2006 05:57 PM CST
Misrahi, I do agree with you, but as long as you are aware of that the same power hungry society also exists in Isreal and the United States. Power is 99.9% selfish. That power is abused not just in Palestinian leadership, but it also exists on Lebanese, American, Isreali, British, and ALL forms of governments. It does seem sometimes that I take sides with the opposition of Isreal, but that is only because I am trying to talk some sense into these writers that are supporting Isreal. If a writer posted for example some propaganda crap from Hizbollah, I assure you, they would feel angry to my replies. The problem is what I posted the first time on this website. Nothing more nothing less, so to take sides would be foolish because there should be NO SIDES IN WORLD PEACE. World peace is unity between every human, and one cannot take sides with anything but truth and facts. I blame Isreal exactly the same amount that I blame ALL OF THE ARAB COUNTRIES. There is not 51 to 49 ratio. Both sides suffer from ignorance that exists in every human being everywhere in the world. See humans act as if they know what they are doing and what they are supposed to do on this Earth, without and facts or logic behind their actions. That is true now and it is true throughout history. So if I blame anyone in this world, I would place the blame on humans that do not place truth and honesty before other things. Why is it sooo hard to convince and Isreali, Palestinian, and an American, that killing a human is not as important as dirt. That is it, simple logic, what is more important dirt (land) or human life. Without even going to religion, or morals, just based on logic and common sense it would seem obvious that a human life is more important than dirt. So simple yet they cannot agree, why? Because of our friend HUMAN NATURE.
Posted by John @ 07/25/2006 06:16 PM CST
Most of the arguments have been given a good kicking around here so there is little more to add. However, I think it's important to nail a couple of Big Lies which have gone unchallenged, to whit:-
1. Hamas/Hezbollah want to kill all Jews.
There is simply nothing to suggest this. Agreed, they want to destroy the state of Israel. However if Islamists were intent on a Nazi-style genocide, there are plenty of Jews living in Iran who they could kill immediately. The point at issue is the right of Jews to a nation state in Palestine, not the survival of the Jews as a people or as individuals. The Islamists may be clerical fascists, but they are not necessarily Nazis.
(2) Hezbollah represents an existential threat to Israel.
Whatever their stated aims, Hezbollah can never represent more than a nuisance on Israel's northern border. Israel, so far as I am aware, has the fourth most powerful military machine on earth, and nuclear weapons. Hezbollah is a militia, albeit a relatively powerful one.
Both of these manifest untruths are used to justify any action by Israel, now matter how much suffering it causes and no matter how much it destablises the situation in the region. Let's at least start from the known facts instead of myth, we might make a little progress then.
The insistence on UN resolutions 1559 and 1680 I find a little puzzling, given Israel's long history of ignoring UN resolutions which do not suit it. Either we need to be serious about ALL the UN resolutions or we should stop using any of them as justifications, it seems to me.
Incidentally, the idea put forward somewhere above that this crisis would lead to the replacement of Assad by a pro-US Sunni regime in Syria seems like insanely wishful thinking. Any replacement of Assad is likely to be by yet more Islamists. You would think people would have learned at least THAT much from Iraq.
Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 06:26 PM CST
To John. Of all the people who have taken time to write in with interesting and informed things to say your comments are the most offensive and racist. Your comments both lack clarity and intellectual reasoning - something that racist's usually suffer from. Although not always. Comments such as, 'dumb Jew', if made to my face would invite a different kind of response. The fact that you think Israelis - you probably meant Israelis and not Jews - would ever deliberately send their children to their deaths as suicide bombers shows how little you know of the cultural differences between the way Jihadists see the world (look up Jihadist on Google as I am sure you re not exactly ceratin what that term means) and the way civilised people see the world. Now - if you are still keeping up - whether I believed in G-d or not, my opinions would be identical. Again - Israel is largely a secular state - and a democratic one. You are truly an ignorant apologist for terror. By your logic, the Allies should not have taken on the Nazis - that was in WWII just in case you are floundering now. You probably wish they hadn't right? As then, all the 'dumb Jews' would have been annihilated. And that is the point here - Iran, Sria, Hezbollah, Hamas - they don't need any encouragement to become terrorists. It is endemic in their culture - they want to kill anyone - yes, you too infidel John - who does not espouse extremist Jihadist ideology. If you pretend these terrorists aren't there they do not vanish John - they become armed with over 13,000 missiles from China and Iran. You may be happy to sit and wait for one to drop on your house but that's your look-out. Now - try and reply without being insulting. Think you can? There is NO moral equivalent between a terror group that expressly intends to kill civilians and to eradiacte an entire nation and one - Israel - that seeks to live in peace and have its children alive and not martyred on the altar of the sickest and most dangerous credo since Hitler and Goering hatched the Final Solution. Now John. Think it over - would you like to live in Iran or Israel. In Israel you would be surrounded by 'dumb Jews' but able to vote, listen to music, wear what you like, write what you like and so on. I suspect you 're not entirely sure.
Posted by andy z @ 07/25/2006 06:32 PM CST
Hello Andy, I can see from your 'G-d' that you are one of the tribe but TBH John's comment is one that I wear as a badge of pride, a bit like Tottenham Hotspur fans calling themselves Yids, if you can't beat it, steal it along with the rug beneath their feet.LOL.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/25/2006 07:19 PM CST
"they don't need any encouragement to become terrorists. It is endemic in their culture "
And you presume to call anyone else a racist?
Posted by Spike @ 07/25/2006 08:02 PM CST
Information here (London) is that the Israeli Air Force bombed Beirut International Airport, the main Christian TV station (owned by the Hariri family?) power installations and so on. These are clearly not Hezbollah-specific targets. The impression from outside the country, which I would guess is more likely to be objective than the Israeli or US media, is that Israel is punishing Lebanon in general for 'allowing' Hezbollah to operate, in the hope that this will discredit Hezbollah and the Lebanese will presure their government to fall into line and police the border.
I don't know anything about Lebanese prisoners in Israel, but I have been told there are plenty.
I see Gush Shalom have been organising anti-war demonstrations of increasing size.
Mike Jebara - take care. I hope you get out/got out OK.
Posted by Chris @ 07/26/2006 12:01 AM CST
LOL, Andy, why are you feeling insulted? You are not a dumb jew, right? What is the difference of me saying "dumb jew", and you saying, "Iran, Sria, Hezbollah, Hamas - they don't need any encouragement to become terrorists. It is endemic in their culture - they want to kill anyone - yes, you too infidel John" See, no difference. Now Andy, I have a question, are you trying to tell me that Isreal wants peace.LOL. Of course they do. I will give you an analogy that I think you are smart enough to understand. If a man wins a jackpot of 2 million dollars, I can pretty much guarentee that he will become a very very happy and peacefull man. Why would he want to fight? He now has a great life to come. Now of course Isreal wants peace JACKASS because they are sitting on land that does not belong to them. Of course they want to be neighborly with Palestinian people because they know that what they did is STEAL land that does not belong to them. Peace they want because they are the people that disturbed their neighbors first and then said I want peace. Let me prove this point a little better for you. Let's say that the UN today decided to give a resolution to the Palestinian people the right to have HALF OF ISREAL, not only the West Bank and Gaza, but exactly half of Isreal. So, lets see here, Isreal under your peace loving definition would welcome the Palestinians with open arms congratulating them on their new found wealth. Isreal would be soooo happy that they would even give the Palestinians 2 billion dollars a year in aid to help them cultivate this land. Shall I go on Andy. See Andy you make it extremely hard for me not to insult you, I believe you do the insulting to yourself. Andy you do not look at any other points of veiw but your own. Narrow. You do not understand human nature. Now I will tell you a little about my self, and really I am not saying this to brag, but I want you too understand how deeply I thought about the difficult and enormous difficulty of analyzing life, and the existence of God, and where humans being came from. I teach physics, chemistry, and math. I have studied evolution, the bible, the koran, christianity, muslim faith, a little of the jewish faith, athiesm, and I have interviewed people from all cultures, faiths, and race. Do you know why I did that? Because I want to know where does John and Andy come from. See that is more important than anything you can do or say on Earth. Now Andy, my best friends are from muslim faith, agnostic faith, athiests, blacks, whites, jews, arabs, americans, cubans, and I tutored and homeschooled jewish and christian kids with the same love and care. So I KNOW I am not racist. Now that I have made that clear. You have to realize that when I say something that insults you, why don't you just think, and just admit you are wrong. Its not hard, I had to admit I was wrong in my past. For example, I quote you again,"whether I believed in G-d or not, my opinions would be identical." That is not true. Your belief in God or the lack of belief in a God does effect your opinions. You have to really really be honest to yourself first to realize it. Common Andy you can do it, just think of abortion, capital punishment, morals, hating or loving a human. You know it is all related to God. Your version of God. I can prove this further Andy. I love proving things. Andy, lets just pretend, just pretend that Jesus is God, and he did come down to Earth to save all humans with love. Now let us also pretend that the God that you believe in loves humanity sooooo much that what Isreal and Hizbollah are doing is deeply deeply hurting Him. My question to you that is this, pretend the story is really true, would you still insist on the further bombing of Lebanon. What would you say to God when you meet him. "I really wanted those bastard terrorists to die". LOL. I dont think so. Andy you are terrified to even imagine my hypothetical situation because it terrifies you. You don't want to think that you have been behaving in a manner displeasing to God. So yes your opinions and behaviours are related to God. Now here is the sad part, your terrorists islamic friends are doing the same thing. I have seen them, they pray 5 times a day, they worship God with all their might. They also know that they are doing God's will. Andy the name Hizbollah in arabic means "party of God". Do you ever stop and step out of your ignorance and ask yourself, what the hell is going on? How can Osama bin Ladin, and the leader of Hizbollah and all the terrorists that you can't stand believe in a God????? Take a break and think. Finished thinking. The answer is the terrorists you hate are identical to YOU. THATS RIGHT ANDY THEY ARE EXACTLY LIKE YOU ARE. I can prove it. If I spend an entire day trying to speak logic to a man like the hizbolah leader, and try to convince him that he is not doing what God wants him to do, do you think that I would succeed? NO NO NO NO. I have done it, I have spoken to so many religious people from all different faiths. None of them will admit that they are wrong. So Andy, in conclusion. If I had an entire year to teach you on what God might really be like and that Isreal is not justified to protect borders that did not belong to Isreal before 1948, you would never change your mind. See. If you are an honest man then lets discuss this intellectually, and you can insult me, thats fine, but lets get to the truth. Here is my challenge beginning with tonight, start praying and praying to God to understand what is it about these terrorists that make them act in a way that seems strange to you. If you can answer that I will kneel at your amazing intellect. Just find out how can a human being who believes, and worships God, and prays five times a day, and fast for an entire month during ramadan, how can they behave in such a manner that is soooo evil in your eyes. Please pray, research, and analyze before you respond to me with this challenge a true and correct response to why these God worshiping people behave the way they do.
Posted by John @ 07/26/2006 06:40 AM CST
Spike you are a smart man. Thankyou.
Posted by john @ 07/26/2006 03:48 PM CST
To John. You presume to know much about everything and everyone - yourself and myself included. I suspect you know less about yourself than you do about me - who you have never met as far as I know. Now the phrase 'jack (ASS) of all trades, master of none' comes to mind. It seems you know a very little about a quite a lot (don't be flattered just yet) - but not enough to come to any true, impactful or rational conclusions. Just so you know - about me - excuse my presumption to tell you about me - I spent 12 years as a Buddhist, 3 years in the IDF in a specialist unit trained to locate and destroy terror cells, and 5 years living and working in Lebanon (Tyre and Sidon) with Shia Muslim peace groups trying to forge ties to Israel and their own terror groups. I also have written much on deconstructing Darwinism and Mid East politics since the Cold War - as well as being an advisor to the UN for (1999-2000) 1 year on where and how to establish a military buffer zone in South Lebanon. I speak fluent Arabic, French and Russian and have a PHD in international politics from the US - my paper was on the EU, its relationship to Israel and funding for the Palestines. Now i know nothing of that could compare to your life's work and experience. The first thing I note from your reply was that it was ranting and over-long and lacked clarity. Next that you failed to address any of my points. However, I'll try some more stuff. Let's take G-d out of the equation for a minute. Can't you think of any wars that cost thousands, millions of lives even, that had NOTHING to do with G-d?? Does that mean that anyone who doesn't believe in G-d is a JACKASS John? NO. It means that whether you believe in G-d or not - some causes are morally sustainable and some aren't. OK so far?? If you can't distinguish between the goals of Hezbollah and Hamas - deeply 'religious people' - and the goals of people like myself - then you have NO moral compass at all. Just to say - oh, he believes in G-d and thus he is an idiot - is a little to simplistic, don't you think? Now Israel was created in a much more democratic way than say Jordan and Syria were, for example. These two states were created when the Ottoman empire collapsed at the whim of the French, Turkish and British. Whereas Jews had always lived in what was a vast land mass called Palestine - alongside Arabs. The League of Nations (forerunner of the UN) created Israel since 6 million Jews had been slaughtered in Europe and the world suddenly thought that maybe that was enough. For now at least. Not you I know. And anyway, when Israel was created it was proposed that she be half its size now - almost exactly. But guess what? Israel's Arab neighbours thought that they could destroy Israel straight away and take the whole place even before the ink on the declaration of independence was dried. And nothing has changed since. Israelis live on land given to them by the international community, land purchased from Arabs legitimately and land won only AFTER various incompetent Arab armies attempted to kill every Jew and destroy the State of Israel. As Golda Meir said, ALL Arabs are Palestinians since they come from Palestine - THE LAND MASS AND NOT THE COUNTRY. There never was a country called Palestine - not on any map, ever. Furthermore, the concept of Pan-Arab nationalism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. Jews, on the other hand, have yearned for this land for 2000 years and lived on it. The Koran makes NOT one mention of Jerusalem, The Torah is replete with references to it. FACT. However, THE biggest mistake you make - among very many - is your moral equivalence 'argument' whereby you seem to be SO ignorant that you actually think the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah would crave peace and live as loving neighbours where they the rulers of the land we now, thank G-d, call Israel. These terror groups - alongside Al Qaeda and funded by Iran and Syria, want Jihad. heard of it? Its not some polite, 'after you', credo. They want to bring their brand of fascistic ideology to all of us - irrespective of whether we believe in G-d or not. They don't care about borders and as shown time and time again, will kill whoever they can, where ever they can - in London, Madrid or NY. If Israel had the same mentality it could - RIGHT NOW - destroy entire Arab capitals and peoples, from Iran to Syria. In many wars, it could have gone forward to take Damascus or Cairo. But Israel did not since it simply wants to live within secure borders, in peace. And the fact that you don't get that is the most stunning thing about you. However, I suspect that you have probably never been to Israel and certainly not to any Arab nations. You have never met with Shia terror groups, their leaders or followers, on the ground. And you most certainly have never jumped from a helicopter in the middle of the night or had a relative killed in a bus bombing in down-town Tel Aviv or lost a member of your family or a friend on the Tube in London on 7/7. That's because you are an apologist for terror and a typical uninformed liberal apologist at that. Not to mention the fact that you are evidently a hard-core racist - as shown by your 'dumb Jew' references. I was insulted even though, as you rightly point out, I am not one. The fact you profess to have friends from many backgrounds means either you are a liar or that they haven't read what you write. The fact that I say that terror is endemic in a culture is not a racial slur - it is a statement of fact. 'Dumb Jew' is a racial slur. Been to Jenin or Bethlehem? No , I didnt think so. On the walls and streets are giant posters EVERYWHERE praising suicide bomb martyrs - women and children too. Ask any youngster what they want to be and its either a footballer or bomber. Now that is tragic and is what i mean by endemic in their culture. A fact. And Israel is NOT responsible for that. Even a sicko liberal like you would have people take personal responsibility for their actions no? PLus - for centuries people have wanted to kill Jews. And since 1948 Arab peoples have tried to destroy Israel and kill Jews. Jihad needs no recruiting sarjeants - it doesn't require Israel to defend itself vigorously for it to have suicide bombers in its midst. It simply requires Israel to exist. Enough for one day. John - hope you have learnt something more for now. May G-d bless the IDF and those who stand up - like men - to oppose terror and its sponsors.
Posted by andy z @ 07/27/2006 04:54 PM CST
Ari,for one thing,"will"in my comment is the future tense,OK? Doesn't matter now,though.Whatever you may think, whatever you may dream, how you act in this world is a pretty good indication of where you'll end up in the next.It's sooo easy in our minds to draw lines of absolutes, where in reality,people are as complicated and different as their fingerprints.How about a little common sense on both sides?? To the Arabs:Unless you are indifferent to the fact that sending wholesale numbers of young, impressionable people to their deaths is WRONG and that each and every one on this planet has a right to be here, things will never get better for the region.Those responsible for blowing up buses,maiming children,and generally creating an atmosphere of dread,anxiety, and doom are the ones who should be "cursed", a good start would be to make them personally dig the graves of each and every child their b-s has affected.And don't profess that the U.S. doesn't care when millions of OUR tax dollars and hundreds, if not thousands of OUR troops AND civilians are there to do nothing but bring you food and medicine.To the Israelis:I don't even pretend to understand how it is to live there.But I DO know one thing. If a man(or group) told me his(or their) aim was to "eradicate MY existance"(please excuse misspelling),then G-d help him!!I personally hope that this latest "crisis" can be somehow turned into a turning point for co-existing, if it's possible.I would suggest however that a face to face meeting between representatives of each side in a neutral site couldn't hurt your position in the world's view.I guess that's a dream too.I do not profess to be any sort of expert on this matter, I am simply stating what I see expressed here.Surely as "incidents" blow up into full-scale war,esculation of hostilities is almost always sure to follow, whether curse words in a barroom brawl or rockets into a neighborhood.As long as narrow minds are in power,GOD HELP US ALL....
Posted by scott @ 07/27/2006 07:04 PM CST
John, if you're sooo smart, ask yourself this one question:Do you have to belive in a higher power to be good or do the right thing? We all have a choice, even if it costs us our lives.No one escapes physical death,anyhow. If you have children, you should understand what I'm talking about and where I'm going with this.Inside us all is a force that wants to do good.Isn't religion the text?? Deep,ain't it??I guess it's simply down to who wrote the book. When the miracle of drawing your next breath loses its power,something fills the vacuum left inside. These people spewing hate towards other groups are filled with hmmmm... EVIL?? Life's a journey,not a destination. Science can scan a person's brain and map the chemical makeup and pathways, but can it expain it's origins?? But back to Israel.The nation of Israel was mentioned in the Bible many, many times. It's "Promised Land" was as well so,John, there it is...
Posted by scott @ 07/27/2006 08:45 PM CST
Hey Scott and Andy, I guess I will kill two birds with one stone. For Scott, God told me yesterday that the state of Isreal was only for the old testament till Jesus came, then salvation was for everyone not for the jews only. So therefore ALL LAND IS FOR EVERYONE. Now I never claimed that science explains the origins of humanity, so do not put words in my mouth.
Now Scot, I assume you are a Christian, since you are stating that Israel is in the Bible. This might offend you, but SO FUKKKEN WHAT??? See this is what religious people fail to see, Hizbolah is more religious then you are, that is why they commit the crimes that they do, so if you state that Isreal is in the Bible and you follow the Bible blindly, then you are giving me the same logical reasoning behind the muslim faith following the Koran. If you want to just place your entire life on a book and walk blindly without using your brains, then that is the real problem sir.
For Andy, I will respond to every point you made, by copying and pasting YOUR OWN WORDS followed by my response in CAPS. First you never answered my question which is the last sentence of my previous posting, why?????
"3 years in the IDF"
" I also have written much on deconstructing Darwinism "
"The first thing I note from your reply was that it was ranting and over-long and lacked clarity"
"Let's take G-d out of the equation for a minute"
"Can't you think of any wars that cost thousands, millions of lives even, that had NOTHING to do with G-d??"
"Does that mean that anyone who doesn't believe in G-d is a JACKASS John"
YES PEOPLE THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ARE ALSO JACKASSES.
"If you can't distinguish between the goals of Hezbollah and Hamas - deeply 'religious people' - and the goals of people like myself - then you have NO moral compass at all. Just to say - oh, he believes in G-d and thus he is an idiot - is a little to simplistic, don't you think?
YOUR GOALS AND HEZBOLLAH'S GOALS ARE NOT THE SAME, BUT BOTH GOALS ARE RELATED TO WHAT EACH ONE OF YOU BELIEVES GOD WANTS YOU TO DO. RIGHT??
"Whereas Jews had always lived in what was a vast land mass called Palestine - alongside Arabs. The League of Nations (forerunner of the UN) created Israel since 6 million Jews had been slaughtered in Europe and the world suddenly thought that maybe that was enough. For now at least. Not you I know. And anyway, when Israel was created it was proposed that she be half its size now -almost exactly."
"Israelis live on land given to them by the international community, land purchased from Arabs legitimately and land won only AFTER various incompetent Arab armies attempted to kill every Jew and destroy the State of Israel."
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS NO RIGHT WHAT SO EVER TO GIVE LAND TO ANYONE. SO LETS MAKE A RESOLUTION TOMMORROW TO GIVE 90% OF ISREAL TO THE AFRICAN STARVING PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUFFERING. RIGHT? EVERYPOINT YOU MAKE AFTER THAT FAILS BECAUSE OF THIS PREMISE. STUPID COMMENT NUMBER 9.
"There never was a country called Palestine"
"The fact that I say that terror is endemic in a culture is not a racial slur - it is a statement of fact. 'Dumb Jew' is a racial slur."
"May G-d bless the IDF and those who stand up - like men - to oppose terror and its sponsors. "
GOD DEFINITELY BLESSED 9 IDF SOLDIERS YESTERDAY, HUH, LOL. I THINK YOU GIVE PEOPLE LIKE HIZBOLLAH A GOOD NAME, LOL. THEY ARE BLESSED BY GOD, TOO. LOL, LOL.
Posted by john @ 07/27/2006 10:53 PM CST
To John. I am now beginning to think that I am seriously underestimating you - how incredibly stupid you are. The problem with you - there are obviously many - is that you simply aren't capable of intelligent debate since you simply do not know enough. That is clear from your comments - your command of english is so poor it very probably doesn't help. What you did do well - was to cut and paste. Mazeltov. What you didn't do well was have anything serious to add in your simplistic, and dumb responses. For example, yes there was a state called Israel mentioned explicitly in a plethora (that means many) of sources from the Torah to ancient texts of Syria, Babylon, Greece etc etc It was a nation state from 2000 years ago - recognised after the death of Ramasees the 1st and recorded too in Egyptian symbolism. There was however NEVER a state of Palestine. Ergo - that means 'thus' - when the international community created formally Israel it wasn't a stab in the dark. There was the question of genocide - that you evidently are not disturbed by in the slightest where Jews are concerned anyway - married to the question of history and rightful claim and land purchase. For example too - you talk about the religion i follow but you are certainly entirely ignorant of it. Like i am ignorant of say, Suffism. that's because i am not a Suffist and I haven't studied it. Understand? It is the Moslem theology of Jihad that talks of their martyrs being better off dead. You are terribly confused I know. So much to take in. So many people to insult. And then there is the BIG issue of G-d. G-d does NOT intervene to prevent or aid man very often. Why? Because if he did there
Posted by andy z @ 07/28/2006 01:03 AM CST
I d like you to disprove G-d's existence for me if u like. But you won't be able too - because I have debated creationism and darwinism etc with leading scientists and physicists from many nations and they have much BIGGER and more sophisticaated minds than yours.
YOU HAVE NEVER DEBATED ME, LOL. AND YOU WON'T BECAUSE YOU ARE RUNNING AWAY.LOL. NOW, YOU WANT PHILOSOPHY,OK. FIRST PREMISE ON PROVING SOMETHING. PROVING SOMETHING IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PERSON THAT KNOWS, NOT THE PERSON WHO DOESN'T KNOW. SO, WHAT I MENTIONED IS THAT PEOPLE SIMPLY, SIMPLY ACCEPT GOD'S EXISTENCE. I NEVER MADE THE CLAIM OF GOD'S EXISTENCE OR LACK OF, THEREFORE SINCE YOU DO KNOW THAT GOD DOES EXIST, IT IS UP TO YOU TO PROVE IT. IF YOU NOTICED I HAVE BEEN GIVING YOU MANY ANALOGIES TO HELP YOU SO I WILL GIVE ONE FOR YOU NOW ALSO. NEWTON DISCOVERED GRAVITY, THEREFORE HE HAD TO PROVE HIS NEWFOUND INFORMATION TO OTHERS THAT DID NOT KNOW. SEE. THE PERSON WHO KNOWS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SHARING AND PROVING HIS OR HER STATEMENTS. SO YOU PROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE TO ME.
If non- religious people and religious people are all jackasses then I guess you are too? Right?
G-d will ceratinly bless the IDF soldiers who died protecting innocent Israelis from terrorits that people like you encourage and support through your idiotic opinions.
YOU SPEAK OF OPINIONS, WOW STRANGE, LET ME ASK, ANDY, HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT GOD WILL CERTAINLY BLESS THE IDF SOLDIERS, LOL. DID HE TELL YOU THAT IN A WET DREAM LAST NIGHT. OH, WAIT, IT WAS WHILE YOU WHERE HAVING SEXUAL THOUGHTS. NO. SORRY, GOD TOLD YOU THIS AFTER YOU GOT OF WORK SO THAT GOD HAD MORE TIME TO SHARE HIS PERSONAL THOUGHTS WITH YOU. DID SANTACLAUS SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THOSE IDF SOLDIERS. LOL. ANDY YOU WANT TRUTH I WILL GIVE YOU TRUTH, GOD DID NOT TELL YOU SHIIIT. THEREFORE IT IS YOUR OPINION.
That's because - there is a world beyond ours
AGAIN OPINIONATED, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF ANOTHER WORLD BEYOND OURS. HAVE YOU BEEN THERE. WAIT, LET ME GUESS GOD TOLD YOU. LOL. DID GOD GENTLY MOLEST YOUR TESTICLES AS HE TALKED ABOUT THE OTHER WORLD. AGAIN IDIOT, YOU ARE GIVING CREDIT TO HIZBOLAH WHO IS SERVING THE SAME GOD YOU BELIEVE IN. LOL.
You - i feel won't be judged - G-d can't judge idiots - so you'll be ok. I am sure you will reply to this but these are my last comments to you as it is a 'no contest' and you bore me with your profound ignorance. You need to read more and travel a bit. You must otherwise you simply will never be taken seriously as I fear you haven't been your whole life.
ALL OPINIONATED. AS FOR RUNNING AWAY, GOOD, USUALLY LOSERS OF DEBATES CANT STAND THE HEAT AND RUN. I HAVE BEEN TO LEBANON, SYRIA, UNITED STATES, BRITIAN, CANADA, BRAZIL, AND I AM PROUD TO SAY THAT I HAVE NEVER AND WILL NEVER SUPPORT ISREAL WITH THEIR BACKWARD THINKING RELIGIOUS WAYS, NOR WILL I EVER SUPPORT HIZBOLLAH WITH THEIR MORONIC VIEWS ALSO. I AM GLAD I AM NEITHER ONE YOU IDIOTS. ONE MORE THING ANDY, WHEN IS YOUR MESSIAH GOING TO SHOW UP, LOL. KEEP WAITING.
I can tell philosophy isn't going to be your strong point so I ll try not to confuse further. For now.
I DON'T NEED PHILOSOPHY, I HAVE SOMETHING WAY HIGHER THEN THAT, IT IS CALLED HONESTY.
And those who die and kill innocents DELIBERATELY in the name of terror and false G-ds most certainly aren't.
AGAIN OPINIONS, ALL OPINIONS. LOL. BY THE WAY MR. PHILOSOPHY. TERROR DOES NOT EXISTS FOR TRUE BELIEVERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AFRAID TO DIE. ARE YOU AFRAID TO DIE ANDY. LOL. SO IF PEOPLE ARE BEING TERRORIZED IN ISREAL THEN TELL THEM TO INCREASE THEIR FAITH. LOL. LOL. SEE ANDY, IF YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS, THEN YOU ARE NOT AFRAID. THE JEWISH PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THAT EACH KATUSHA IS JUST SENDING THEM TO HEAVEN TO BE WITH GOD, OOPS, SORRY, G-D. LOL. NOW, IF ANYTHING A SUICIDE BOMBER HAS A LOT OF BALLS, SEE I THINK THEY ARE STUPID, BUT I AM IMPRESSED IN THEIR COURAGE TO KILL THEMSELVES FOR THE NAME OF ALLAH. LOL. I MEAN THEY MUST REALLY KNOW ALLAH EXISTS. ANDY I AM GLAD YOU ARE NOT REPLYING, BECAUSE EVENTUALLY YOU WOULD HAVE LOST YOUR FAITH WITH FURTHER DISCUSSIONS. I WOULD TAKE AWAY YOUR FAITH AND **** ON IT. YOUR FAITH IS ALL BASED ON SCRIPTURE, AND NOT WHAT IS BETWEEN YOUR EARS. YOU WANT SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT, WHILE YOU ARE NOT REPLYING TO ME??? CAN YOU TELL ME ONE, JUST ONE GOOD REASON WHY JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH THAT DUMBASS JEWISH PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF WHERE WAITING FOR??? GOOD LUCK, LOL.
Posted by john @ 07/28/2006 01:58 AM CST
You should learn to read what you've just finished typing... and then rewrite it in a way that makes sense to people equipped with the English language. That said, I agree with you in principle.
I have only a few problems with what youâve said. Iâm not an expert on the Middle East. Everything I know is from television. Please, I am begging you to tell me when I say something that is not true. I honestly donât know if Iâve been fed lies all my life.
Youâve stated that Israel purchased much of the land from absentee land owners as if there is nothing wrong with that. As stated, Iâm not an expert, but I recall hearing that only 6% of the land was legally purchased from absentee landowners. In the 1920s the League of Nations outlawed such practice for two reasons: 1) Palestinians had already been promised in writing that they would be given their own country. 2) The absentee landowners were mafia, who unbeknownst to the indigenous people living on the land, went to the local government office (yes the region did have a functioning civil service) and paid the right people to print a piece of paper giving the mafia types the land.
A further 30% of the land was purchase illegally after it was internationally outlawed. Nobody who lived and worked the land received any money.
Criminals, and government, and the price of tee in China. This is kaos theory economics at its finest. And, to support John, I believe he is saying something like this when he says people are jackasses that will act in a predictable manner â always in their best interests. (John, sorry for putting words in your mouth if thatâs what Iâm doing)
Secondly, you keep saying Hizbola is not like the IDF. Well, what were the people who created the IDF doing in the 1920s? They were blowing up busses, bakeries and post-offices as members of the Jewish underground. Sounds pretty much the same to me.
Please tell me if Iâm stated something as fact, which is not.
Posted by James @ 07/28/2006 04:55 AM CST
james, read more slowly. lol, james i am hurt that andy is not talking
ANDY, I KNOW YOU WON'T REPLY, BUT YOU WILL NONETHELESS READ THIS. SHOULD THE UNITED STATES NUKE MEXICO IF THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT KIDNAPPED 2 US SOLDIERS?
Posted by JOHN @ 07/28/2006 06:09 PM CST
I just want to take this opportunity to express my utmost pleasure at the killings of the 9 Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. In fact, I expirience the same pleasure EVERY time I hear an Israeli got killed by the resistance forces, whoever the Israeli happens to be.
Posted by UpYours @ 07/28/2006 06:14 PM CST
UpYours, you're right. You are up my ass. You'll never get out. That's where you and others like you belong!!
Don't worry. You won't get out. The smell of my ass is what you will smell for the rest of your life. It is very similar to the stench you and others like you spread around the world. So, the smell shouldn't be new to you.
Enjoy and have a happy ride!!! I am smiling..:)))))
Posted by Daniel @ 07/28/2006 09:46 PM CST
Ok, John. Lets get you off that high horse of yours. I read some of your comments. Got bored with the rest of your pontifications.
One thing is granted: I don't fight. I run away. But I get to live another day!!! :)) I don't know about you, but I have only one life, and I am allowing myself to be selfish in this way.
You haven't lived in Israel. You don't know what it's like. My views come from living there for a pretty long time. If there is anyone who conveniently criticizes people's views on the situation and hiding behond powerful armies, it is you, who never experienced the conflict, and who doesn't know the first thing about it. Hence, you're not qualified to comment on it. You are a BABY. A NOBODY on this issue!!! So go back to your playpen and shut your opinionated mouth.
Words like "TRUTH" and "STUPIDITY" seem to be your favorite. With a good reason: Your brain knows nothing about the former, but packed with the latter. I know it's a newsflash for an opinionated prick such as yourself, but in your case, I am afraid this TRUTH is undeniable. Now, you say how the truth disturbs people, and so they refuse to hear it. I am sure you wohn't hear this truth, because it will disturb you, and being the pathetic human being that you are, you will shove it under the rug and criticize me in return. You are welcome to take the noble position and say that you "won't stoop down to my level".
In fact write whatever you want. Or don't comment at all. You know I won't dignify you with a response anymore. Just as the terrorists in my previous comment, you're not worth a seat from my balls.
But you will have read it!! And that what counts!! I am smiling..:)))
Posted by Daniel @ 07/28/2006 10:03 PM CST
Sorry to say Up Yours, those with the most toys win. Putting small dents in a genocidal giant such as, the US and Israel, is like swatting at a pack of hungry wolves. It is futile, and will only increase your suffering. The only way for the underdog to win is to give the wolves what they want, with a side of poison. If I were Lebanese, the tactics of the Trojans and Attila the Hun would be worth studying. As it stands Israel will get what they want without much effort or suffering. Arabs must play the game as by our rules or they will continue to suffer humiliating losses.
Posted by Drutch @ 07/28/2006 11:38 PM CST
We may lose 7000 wars but all Assrael needs is to lose one war, just one war baby, and that little piece of **** is history. So go ahead and have the time of your life because little by little we are going to scare all them Israeli trash away.
Posted by UpYours @ 07/29/2006 05:16 AM CST
i am not getting tru
Posted by tony @ 07/29/2006 02:04 PM CST
Heh, Up Yours, I'm not a big fan of Israel either, but eh, your dialect is one that would indicate American born citizen: "muster", "asswipe", "freaking"..etc. What makes you so pro Palestinian when you have never lived in that hell? If you just wanted to root for an underdog, root for the White-Sox or the Detroit Lions or something. At least they have a fighting chance.
Posted by Drutch @ 07/29/2006 04:02 PM CST
LOLOLOLOL!!! Well, excuse my English, you freaking racist son of a whore. So because my English is good I'm no Palestinian?
Posted by UpYours @ 07/29/2006 05:10 PM CST
Hey John, up yours too baby. Same ISP, sunshine.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 12:19 AM CST
You are waiting for Isreal to lose one war. LOL. Yes maybe hizbollah and the hamas can organize their toothpicks and prick an Isreal soldier once a year. So at that rate, Isreal might lose in ummmm the year 6000. LOL. Go tend your olives dear, Isreal and United States will never lose, because it isn't just their military, it is also the principles that they live by. The constitution by the United States will never ever ever ever ever die because every human that had a taste of freedom will defend it to their last ounce of blood.
30 % of the land ONLY, LOL, again if Isreal wanted to "up yours", they would take over not only palestine, but 100 % of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt, so don't feel flattered.
Up Yours, I also take great pleasure to see every single IDF soldier dying, but I also take pleasure in every Neondrethal Hammas or Hizbollah fighter that dies because they think that they are doing Allah's work. Allah does not need help from humans you Jackass.
I know you purchased your land for 50 cents, but I would sell it quickly and make a profit while you can. lol.
300 million ARABS plus 3 NUCLEAR BOMBS = ZERO Arabs, you moron. Your "roaches" won't be "running around" they would be on their BACK. lol.
Finally, Up yours, I do feel sorry for you, and for many people all over the world, but it isn't because you lost some land, it is because you are STUPID.
Posted by john @ 07/30/2006 03:07 AM CST
No, this is not going to take till the year 6000. This is it, baby. Right here, right now.
Posted by UpYours @ 07/30/2006 05:24 AM CST
Ignorant. lol. No "up yours", the U.S. has enough nuclear weapons to destroy all 7 billion people on Earth, not only 1 billion muslims. The nuclear weapons that are available now are a 100 times more powerfull than the Hiroshima days moron.
LOL, right here right now, oh I see, so Islam is going to win the war now. Oh wait, I know Iran has some new secret weapon that the United States does not know about right??? Hey, "up yours", in Surah 2 in the Koran, it sais to not doubt the book. Does that mean you don't doubt that Mohammad was communicating in a cave with an Angel Gabriel. Is it true that only ONE ANGEL, DECIDED TO TALK TO ONE HUMAN OUT OF THE BILLIONS OF HUMANS THAT EXISTED OVER THE CENTURIES. MOHAMMED WAS SUCH A NICE MAN THAT HE WAS GIVEN THE FINAL WORD OF GOD.
Posted by john @ 07/30/2006 07:09 AM CST
Jeez we've got kansas farm boys aspiring to entrepreneurial conquest of the goats cheese and stuffed olive market, and we've got John 'Onan the great' getting his sheets in a twist over someone who can shout louder than he does, but without using Caps lock as a megaphone. It's like a bun fight at the IT corral.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/30/2006 04:03 PM CST
Again...Up Yours, I agree with your position but it does no good to spout off anything like "wipe out Israel" and such. Israel is not one man, they are many people with their own individual views. They are not all Likud. They are just like you..and historically speaking they are you blood. That is what I don't understand about all you retards in the middle east. You kill your own blood. Jews, Arabs, Perssians. You are all of the same blood. And again.. Up Yours. You don't only type American brand english well, but you would HAVE to be born and raised here to have aquired your use of phrasing and vocabulary. Go White-Sox.
Posted by Drutch @ 07/30/2006 04:52 PM CST
The fight against terror is impossible as terror is not a concrete thing that you can fight. It is a state of mind of any person that results in a final action. If they wanted to fight terror then they would work on the root problem, on why people are thinking about terrorising others and eradicating the problems that are causing people to think about becoming terrorists. Muslims get angry and develop terrorist ideals when they see America wage double standards in the Middle East with their own ideas and benefits in hand. Having said that I wouldnât blow myself up for land, but I would for my religion. Many Muslimsâ would and that shows our deep conviction that Allah- God, does exist. He created everything and to Him we will return. Whilst I know from the way you write that you are not a religious person, donât assume that everyone who has faith is then a moran or jackass. We believe in what created us. It wasnât my mum and my dad, as who created them and them before them??? It goes on, who created the universe and made everything go in systematic order, the moon to go round the earth and the earth round the sun. You donât need an RE lesson, but just remember it is better to believe in something with conviction, and then find out that there isnât than not to not believe in something with such conviction and find out that there is.. because then youâve seriously fucked it!!
Feel free to respond as Iâm sure u will
Posted by abbi @ 07/30/2006 10:49 PM CST
A lot of people have suffered so badly. Its no wonder they support extremists, whether a right wing aggressive Israeli government, or the uncontrollable militias like Hezbollah. Its not surprising their own suffering blinds them to the pain they subject to other human beings. The real sufferers on both sides are the people - and until they are given respect, an end to poverty, and most importantly a life where their Fathers, Mothers and children are no longer murdered or maimed, this will continue.
Have any of you known a person who was bullied - given no respect, or chances in life? Or faced daily humiliation from people around them. Did they go on to live productive fulfilled lives? Maybe sometimes they do, but then again they might do what someone I once knew did and burn down the school. Or bring a gun in. How about blow yourself up somewhere?
This latest 'war' will do no good to anyone. How many of those maimed children are going to grow up as normal well balanced humans, and how many will have anger and hatred as some of their earliest emotions. If you serve punishment on any animal, it will bite you!
Shame on Bush and Blair for NOT calling for a ceasefire (although Blair has now, rather belatedly) - whether it is attainable or not, it has powerful symbolism - children die, and just because the peace may not be permanent, doesn't mean we shouldn't momentarily prevent their deaths. Bush's rhetoric underlines his desire for a showdown with Iran, and his disregard for human life. Once again, our leaders have let us down, and given more reason for the disturbed underclass of the world reason to commit attrocity to us aswell.
This conflict will NEVER be solved militarily, every act of aggression simply makes it worse. Whether you care for all the people of this world, or only yourself, this pointless destruction needs to end NOW.
Posted by EveryoneChill @ 07/31/2006 05:18 AM CST
hmm..It's simple, people need to get their heads out of their asses, take a look around them and realize; there is no god; no savior, no heaven and no hell. Save yourselves. Save your children, and save all those you come in contact with. If everyone followed a Marxist approach to life they would realize we all can live in moderation, in peace, and there is enough for everyone. If you find someone being a greedy prick, beat them senseless, for they are depriving another. The US alone throws away enough food to feed starving African countries. What the hell are we doing here people. This is PURE BULLSHIT. We need to take control of our environments, our governments, and the imperialist that run our lives. It's time we stand for what we believe instead of paying lip service to ghosts and lost dreams. It's time we break the backs of the oppressors! Wake up tomorrow and declare war on those that benefit from dividing us.
Posted by Drutch @ 07/31/2006 06:09 AM CST
As far as the Babble is concerned there is hardly any archeological evidence to back it up. And by that I mean anything OUTSIDE of the Babble that can verify its stories.
Posted by UpYours @ 07/31/2006 11:15 AM CST
By all means dismiss the notion of some deity floating about the heavens and dispensing largess or punishment according to mood, but don't dismiss out of hand the reality of the lives of the many people in the bible. I think you will find there is more evidence for their existance than you think. It is certain that Jesus existed, as did the apostles. Their relationship with their G-d is of no interest to me, but their actual existance is as good as proven. The biggest hurdle for the average perason to overcome is the otherworldly, magical nature attributed to biblical folk by their biographers. But why shouldn't a guy like Jesus have existed, it's his religious legacy that is so damned unbelievable, not his life. He was just another young man with a problem about the status quo, an agitator and reformist - once you remove the obvious nonsense you are left with the daily lives of interesting people.
The old testament too is gradually coming into clearer focus too with Egyptologists such as David Rohl making great strides in matching biblical events to the heiroglypghic record in Egypt - The story from Jacob to Moses now has a major series of Archeolical proofs attatched to it - see 'A Test of Time', by David Rohl.
It's too long here to go into all the archeoligcal proofs ( e.g Recently the grave of Joseph Ciaphus - a major player in the Jesus story, was discovered, as have details of Pontius pilot) but if you study up on the subject you may find yourself surprised. Why wouldn't writers use well known historical events or contemporary ones to try and make sense of their place in the scheme of things? Real life is easily more interesting than fiction, and you don't have to make it up.
Posted by Zed Misrahi @ 07/31/2006 02:13 PM CST
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Posted by Mario @ 07/31/2006 06:49 PM CST
First to Zed, and then to Abbi,
No it is not better to believe in something because "just in case" you can be fuukkked. No, see I don't care wether I get punished or not punished for believing or not believing. What matters to me is being honest to my self. You are Moslim and you have never met Mohammed. Even if you did meet Mohammed you should be smart enough to ask for proof of his communication. So, my question is why accept something that you don't have a clue on if its true? Then you talk about who created mom and dad and so on. And what keeps the the world going around in systematic order?
To Zed, the simple fact that history in itself follows a sort of proportianality, in which, the further you go back in time the less certain you are of the events that took place, especially details. So, when discussing historical facts, it will always be subject to debate no matter what you dig up. The fact is that if God does exist, then I am safe to assume that he was alive back then, and he is still alive today. So, it is simple, if an individual wants to know about God's existence, you simply ask Him. I am sure that God would be much more pleased in your honesty towards Him then just to accept something you are not sure about. If people would ask God if he exists or does not exist, then if God really cares about us, then you might get a response. If not, then he either doesnt' give a shhit or he does not exist.
Posted by john @ 07/31/2006 09:23 PM CST
to UpYours and john and abbi.
Believing in something. To those who don't believe in something ie G-d, pay attention. You believe in the religion of not believing. OK so far. That's your religion and it is more narrow-minded towards most things than religion as we more conventionally understand it. Secular liberalism can tolerate everything EXCEPT religion. At this point it becomes totally intolerant and that is way liberalism has a major problem. Those that embrace this form of religion - no-believing - believe in SO much that it far outweighs what religious people believe in. And anyway - as I keep saying, wars have been waged that everything and nothing to do with G-d. Moreover, terror can be defeated and it will be and it can be identified. Take Nazi Germany - they were defeated right? OK - today we have Nazis in the form of Jihadist Muslim extremists. Many of which write on this very site. You will hear overt calls for the end of Israel and Jews - ref UpYours. And covert demands from apologists for terror - ref John and Abbi. Here is the bottom line - irrespective of what you think of Israel: HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AL QAEDA, SYRIA, IRAN - THESE MOVEMENTS AND STATES WISH TO ANNIHILATE ISRAEL AND JEWS. BUT HAT IS ONLY A SMALL APRT OF THEIIR LIFE'S WORK. THE TRUE WORK IS TO SUBJUGATE THE ENTIRE WORLD TO THE NEW CALIPHATE OF MUSLIM JIHADIST EXTREMIST TOTALITARIAN FASCIST IDEOLOGY WHEREBY ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN ANYTHING RESSEMBLING FREEDOM OF RELIGION, THOUGHT, EXPRESSION, HUMAN RIGHTS OR DEMOCRACY WILL BE WIPED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. It is unreal how many people out there can't see it. 9/11, 7/7 in London, - there could be a hundred such attacks and still people sitting in their smug little worlds won't grasp that Israel is on teh side of what is morally right - acting to destroy terror. A terror that uses Israel as a stepping stome to world domination. Just visit any website of any extremist Muslim group and investigate a little and it will be obvious what Jihad means. Onlu UpYours is honest enought to say it - for which he deserves all that he will get. The racist, fascist pig. John is too dumb and inarticulate to be judged truly, he is just a sicko liberal who thinks by taking everything apart he is proving that only he has the answers. But his answers are that everone is a jackass - and that is that. If he has a mum or dad blwon up by one of these Nazi Muslim Jihadists just maybe he will wake up. I don't of course wish it on him. But if he thinks you can throw amateur school-boy argumants in poor english at TERROR - well, he is smoke. Thank G-d for Israel. There is NO moral equivalent between Israel that targets terrorists and sadly kills civilans ACCIDENTALLY and Hezbollah, for example, that EXPRESSLY aims to kill civilians.
Posted by andy z @ 07/31/2006 10:03 PM CST
That is called Nihilism Z. And yes I am a proud Nihilist. I believe in what I can see, touch, smell or otherwise manipulate. There are no events that occur that would suggest a god or any other fantastical being. Fairies and Jesus horses(dinosaurs for any SNL fans) don't make the world go round. I don't see any god intervining in any atrocities, and besides what truely is right and wrong? There is no such thing as right and wrong, only do and don't do. And the reason we get so pissed at ignorant religious people is because your F'n up our world. It could be a great place of peace, enjoyment, and great scientifical advances. Your Jesus and Fariy worshiping tends to make you think you can impose your will upon all of us, thus preventing even medical advancements. What a waste of time and energy people invest into absolute nothingness. We could accomplish anything if people would only get their heads out of the clouds.
Posted by OMFG @ 07/31/2006 11:42 PM CST
I know God exits just like I know my great great grand parents existed, that I have never met, but without whom I would not be here. And the same applies with God, never met him but without His existence I would not be here. There is something that the Quran does say for situations like this and that is no matter how much you try to explain to them (disbelievers) they will never believe you. So why waste my time. Sometimes the unknown can create more fear and uncertainty than what we can see before us. The proof you need is right under your own nose. The world itself. Or was that created by the big bang. You remind me of an old science teacher I had that said everything must have an equation or evidence to support its existence. But whatâs the equation for creating fire or water?
Oh forget it.. I donât know why I bother.. For you have your religion (ideas or whatever) and for me I have mine.. You will never agree with me and I will never agree with you.. Weâll leave it at that..
Posted by abbi @ 08/01/2006 11:29 AM CST
Fire would be an accelerant or any combustable fuel and an ignitor (primarily a carbon base, oxygen, and source of energy). Paraffin, an oxygen jet and an ignition source makes a great fire. Water would be one Oxygen and two hydrogen. Sheesh some people eh? Or as a religious person would explain it( one omnipresent being and alot of booga-booga hocus pocus.) Yep that sounds logical to me!
Posted by OMFG @ 08/01/2006 01:38 PM CST
abbi, you don't really know there is a god. I don't believe in anything. I only want TO KNOW FACTS, NOT BELIEVE. therefore i do not believe. I either know something or I don't know. I do know that you don't know that there is a god. once again, you say it is under my nose, lol. My feet are under my nose, the idea of God takes a little more intelligence than just stating it is under your nose. Hizbollah are believers of god. god is under their nose too. lol. So you want to be separated from hizbollah, then use your brain and be honest to yourself. you are only decieving yourself.
Posted by john @ 08/02/2006 02:01 AM CST
Pardon my absence, I was moving to a new apartment.
Posted by UpYours @ 08/04/2006 05:52 PM CST
John - if you are really actually interested in knowing truth you might want to consider studying some philosophy. I find your faith in "facts only" to be somewhat striking. What are "facts" anyway? Who determines what they are? Whose perspective do we take when determining what is "fact" and what is simply a "belief"? Do you really suppose that the only things worth believing are those things that you yourself consider "facts?" That in itself is a belief system that is not grounded in any emperically verifiable "facts."
One thing is a fact - that even the most die hard skeptic needs to excercise some faith somewhere in order to make sense of his world.
As far as this conflict goes, the facts seem to be one of the casualties of this war. Each side is guilty of crimes against the other. It's like trying to figure out "whose fault it is" between two kids who have antagonized each other for months and then get into a fight on the playground. Try to figure that one out. But as someone who is relatively new to studying the conflict one thing keeps jumping out at me, no matter what sources I go to: there's only one side in this conflict that is determined to pursue the complete and total eradication of a people group from the land.
I'm only a passerby on this website and probably won't come back to read replies often, but I will respond to any emails sent my way.
Posted by blue_wister @ 08/05/2006 04:09 AM CST
well well John, i would truly feel sorry for you if you lost the use of your five senses, what would you and the rest of the un-beliving people do?? I truly feel sorry for you anyhow because VERY LITTLE of what YOU have said is constructive. I wil say that no matter what , Hizballah is definitely motivated.And,that many people look upon the U.S. as a bully.Try asking any Muslim living in the U.S. how 9/11 and the aftermath has made his/her life here harder.In conclusion, now I know why slang for toilet is "john"
Posted by scott @ 08/06/2006 07:45 PM CST
read this..this should be good for all those that already have fallen under the terrorists' propaganda..It's a threat people!! Wake up..
A GERMAN THOUGHT
If any of you still feel that this war on terror is a mistake, here is an opinion from an unexpected source. This is not a problem that is going to be easy to solve. It is the struggle to maintain our Western way of life and the very culture that has made it possible. Lose this one, and our grandchildren may be speaking Arabic, those of them that survive the "conversion".
Look at what has been happening in Europe the last couple of weeks. For all practical purposes, they won Spain without any effort on their part other than a couple of bombs in public places. Now they are burning Paris and hitting on Holland and Belgium.
Better get serious, very, very serious!
It's fascinating that this should come out of Europe. Mathias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily paper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat. This is a must-read by all Americans. History will certify its correctness.
EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.
Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives, as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe, where for decades, inhuman suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European Appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.
Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush .... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic Fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany?
I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.
One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler and declaring European "Peace in our time".
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness. Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for Anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against Democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.
On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes.
Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe: Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation ... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.
Europe, thy name is Cowardice.
God Bless the Americans
---God Bless America---
Posted by Daniel @ 08/09/2006 10:31 PM CST
ok..all of you terrorists..this is Olmert's (Prime Minister of Israel) way to say to you.. and to the rest of the naive world...**** YOU!!! I am again, smiling..:)))
Speech published in Maariv (Israeli newspaper)on July 31, 2006:
Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world. I, the Prime Minister of Israel,am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon.
Posted by Daniel @ 08/09/2006 11:30 PM CST
I can agree wholey with Omhert's statement. But, there is still the matter of those that do not attack Israel or their neighbors. How do we preserve their lives? How do you separate the enemy from the victims? The only way possible is to draw their fire, allowing them to expose themselves at clsoe range. The only way is a loooooooong, massive, ground offensive/patrol. Israel does not have the resources to do this. It requires a joint effort by many nations. And still, you run the risk of the vitims becoming the enemy as they would view you as an invader and oppressor. But, this is the only possible way to (maintain) stability in the region. I say maintain because this would never resolve the conflict, only contain it. As I have said in the past, a strong UN presence in the affected areas would be ideal, as this would draw the attention away from Israel, and those that would attack the UN forces would then have exposed and identified themselves as legitimate targets. Attacking Israel results in meaningless resolutions, attacking the UN could, but not always (Rawanda), result in military action against the attacker.
Posted by OMFG @ 08/10/2006 07:51 PM CST
Open War says Nasarala.
Posted by tony @ 08/11/2006 06:25 AM CST
read this guys..again..educational!!!
Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt
I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so when
Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA A different spin on Iraq war.
This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired
Tuesday, July 12, 2005
The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are
First, let's examine a few basics:
1. When did the threat to us start?
* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist
2. Why were we attacked?
Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened
3. Who were the attackers?
4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.
5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as
Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill
6. So who are we at war with?
There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the
So with that background, now to the two major questions:
1. Can we lose this war?
2. What does losing really mean?
If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions
We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the
It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means
What losing really means is:
We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will
We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of
They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will
The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they
If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will
The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until
So, how can we lose the war?
Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is,
Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life
President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil
Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?
No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political
Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media
And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing
Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days
Can this be for real?
The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the
To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner
Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That
We are the last bastion of defense.
We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge
If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive,
And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow
This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or
If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims
Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown,
They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then
I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but
Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that include
Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our
If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web
Posted by Daniel @ 08/17/2006 09:42 PM CST
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