MideastWeb Middle East Web Log

log  archives  middle east  maps  history   documents   countries   books   encyclopedia   culture   dialogue   links    timeline   donations 

Search:

My afterlife conversion

04/11/2004

To whom it may concern,

let it be known that however I am a secularist, an agnostic with an atheist inclination, if in the far future, my descendants want to convert themselves to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to include myself in that conversion, I have no objection and I wish that the winds shall push them on their way.

Really, why should I care ? They shall live their lives and I shall have lived mine.

Best
Paul

April 11, 2004 NYT
Mormons Criticized Again for Posthumous Baptisms By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/11/national/11MORM.html


SALT LAKE CITY, April 10 (AP) — Researchers say Mormons have continued to baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith posthumously, despite having promised to discontinue the practice.
"We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Mr. Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."
A spokesman for the Mormon church, Dale Bills, said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.
The practice is primarily intended for the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that a person's ability to choose a religion continues after death. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.
"Even if they say they want to do somebody a favor, it's not a symbol of love," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "It's a symbol of arrogance."
In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that it stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said Friday that she had found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All were baptized well after the 1995 agreement.
Mr. Michel's group asked Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, to intervene. Senator Clinton met last month with Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and a Mormon, though neither would comment on the session.

If you like this post - click to Reddit!
add to del.icio.usAdd to digg - digg it

Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000241.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

by Editor @ 09:19 PM CST [Link]

NEWS

Middle East e-Zine

Midde East News

Opinion Digest

Late Updates

REFERENCE

Middle East Glossary

Middle East Maps

Middle East Books

Middle East Documents

Israel-Palestine History

Israel-Palestine Timeline

Middle East Countries

Middle East Economy

Middle East Population

Middle East Health

Zionism History

Palestinian Parties

Palestinian Refugees

Peace Plans

Water

Middle East

  

Blog Links

OneVoice - Israeli-Palestinian Peace Blog

Bravo411 -Info Freedom

Israel News

Oceanguy

Michael Brenner

Dutchblog Israel

Dutch - IMO (Israel & Midden-Oosten) Blog (NL)

GulfReporter

Israpundit

Alas, a Blog

Little Green Footballs

Blue Truth

Fresno Zionism

Reut Blog

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Blog

Simply Jews: Judaism and Israel

Jeff Weintraub - Commentaries and Controversies

Vital Perspective

ZioNation

Meretz USA Weblog

normblog

MIDEAST observer

On the Contrary

Blogger News Network- BNN

Google Sex Maps

Demediacratic Nation

Realistic Dove

Tulip - Israeli-Palestinian Trade Union Assoc.

On the Face

Israel Palestjnen (Dutch)

Middle East Analysis

Israel: Like This, As If

Middle East Analysis

Mid_East Journal

Z-Word Blog

Dvar Dea

SEO for Everyone


Web Sites & Pages

Israeli-Palestinian Procon

End Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: One Voice

Democratiya

ATFP- American Task Force on Palestine

Americans For Peace Now

Shalom Achshav

Chicago Peace Now

Nemashim

Peacechild Israel

Bridges of Peace

PEACE Watch

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Z-Word

Zionism

Zionism and Israel

Zionism and Israel on the Web

Israel - Palestina:Midden-Oosten Conflict + Zionisme

Israël in de Media

Euston Manifesto

New Year Peace

Jew

Christian Zionism

Jew Hate

Space Shuttle Blog

Israel News Magazine

SEO


My Ecosystem Details
International Affairs Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory

Link 2 us
We link 2 U.
MidEastWeb- Middle East News & Views
MidEastWeb is not responsible for the content of linked Web sites


Replies: 6 comments

The inherent problem in this situation, as I see it, is not theological or dogmatic. It's respect for the living.

All the names of the dead, as they are run swiftly through the LDS temple procedure of baptism, confirmation and endowments represent a person - a person that most likely has many living relatives that are loyal to their own religion and culture and would be hurt and appalled by the LDS listing this ancestor among its members.

I think that any organization, churches included, should be legally barred from inflicting membership or any other rite/treatment on anyone who has not formally consented to the act.

Posted by Airmid @ 04/14/2004 06:46 PM CST

Hi Aimid,

You shall note that my intervention was giving the right to convert me after my death to my dscendants, nobody else.

True, it is quite questionable to convert "the dead of sdomebody else". This is going against ethic.

That being said, to make a law that forbids the practice seems to me to try to prevent a slight with a serious restriction of the religious freedom.

Best
Paul
Belgium

Posted by Paul @ 04/19/2004 12:47 PM CST

Could/would all the preceding 'Prophets' of The Mormon Church appreciate it if they were to be baptised into another religion because another religion felt in would be in 'their best interest'..------concerning 'their best interest'...make your own conclusions about what this phrase could/would imply-------... ;?)

Posted by FC Mellon @ 04/19/2004 07:39 PM CST

Hi FC,

Like I said before, "I am a secularist, an agnostic with an atheist inclination" It seems difficult to class me as a "'Prophet' of The Mormon Church"

As I don't believe in afterlife, I just don't care if they baptize me but if I were a believer, a Christian or a Jew, why should I care?

I would know that I have the Truth and that this mormon practice is just nonsense and has no impact on my afterlife.

Best
Paul
Belgium

Posted by Paul @ 04/20/2004 04:07 PM CST

Who can possibly care about such nonsense? Once we are dead we are gone and eventually forgotten. Religions are some of the most brilliant examples of science fiction and the effects of mass delusion. Let the LDS do as they please, it is really totally irrelevant and of no consequence, just as any other religious ceremony or act.

Posted by Edward @ 04/24/2004 05:09 AM CST

Regardless of what your view is on this subject, the facts ought to be straight. Let me first say that I am no expert on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints… the Mormons. But it seems I have something to offer, so I’ll chime in.

Mormon’s take Christ's words in the New Testament literally, and they believe that baptism is a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of God. Likewise, Mormon’s believe that God, being just, withholds final judgment until all the facts are on the table and an individual is able to make an informed decision regarding God and His plan for His children. As indicated in the Associated Press article, “the church believes that a person's ability to choose a religion continues after death.” The Mormon’s, therefore, perform proxy baptisms for the dead, to provide for the possibility that the deceased individual MIGHT accept the gospel (as taught by the LDS church).

The proxy ordinances do not result in or impose conversion/membership any more than the scholarship offers some students receive coming out of high school, to use a crude analogy. The scholarship offer only means that, should a graduate elect to attend that particular school, the way is paved and some of the requirements are taken care of; the graduate does not automatically appear on the school’s membership role just because the offer was made.

The “listing” referenced in a previous post… listings such as those found at www.familysearch.com, the LDS church’s online genealogy resource… is not a membership role. Just because Great-Great-Grand-daddy shows up on the site does not mean he is any less Jewish, or Catholic, or Buddhist, or whatever, than he was in those beloved old pictures you have on your mantel. Recognize the “listing” for what it really is, take advantage of the resource, and learn more about these ancestors whom you, obviously, have a keen interest in.

Posted by Aaron @ 04/24/2004 01:08 PM CST


Please do not leave notes for MidEastWeb editors here. Hyperlinks are not displayed. We may delete or abridge comments that are longer than 250 words, or consist entirely of material copied from other sources, and we shall delete comments with obscene or racist content or commercial advertisements. Comments should adhere to Mideastweb Guidelines . IPs of offenders will be banned.

Powered By Greymatter

[Previous entry: "Is Iraq burning? Return of the ungrateful volcano"] Main Index [Next entry: "Fact and Fiction about the Israeli Wall/Fence/Barrier in Jerusalem"]

ALL PREVIOUS MidEastWeb Middle East LOG ENTRIES

Thank you for visiting MidEastWeb - Middle East.
If you like what you see here, tell others about the MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log - www.mideastweb.org/log/.

Contact Us

Copyright

Editors' contributions are copyright by the authors and MidEastWeb for Coexistence RA.
Please link to main article pages and tell your friends about MidEastWeb. Do not copy MidEastWeb materials to your Web Site. That is a violation of our copyright. Click for copyright policy.
MidEastWeb and the editors are not responsible for content of visitors' comments.
Please report any comments that are offensive or racist.

Editors can log in by clicking here

Technorati Profile

RSS FeedRSS feed Add to Amphetadesk Add to Amphetadesk

USA Credit Card - Donate to MidEastWeb  On-Line - Help us live and grow