You only understand when it happens to someone you know

12/18/2002

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Original text copyright by the author and MidEastWeb for Coexistence, RA. Posted at MidEastWeb Middle East Web Log at http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000014.htm where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Distributed by MEW Newslist. Subscribe by e-mail to mew-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by email with this notice and link to and cite this article. Other uses by permission.

by Moderator @ 10:33 PM CST [Link]

Replies: 15 comments

Just one more travesty that shames me as a Jew. I would not hold my breath waiting for a hypocritical opportunist like Hillary Clinton to lend a hand. It is up to the Israeli peace movement , the nonviolent Palestinian resistance, and people everywhere who are concerned with human rights to demand that the Occupation and all its attendant abuses and atrocities ends ASAP

Posted by David Howard @ 12/19/2002 09:16 AM CST

This is a terrible case of bad judgement on the part of individuals in the Israeli Army and casts great shame on all of us Israelis. The fact that there is such a severe travesty of justice is to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

This is further proof that the occupation corrupts the Army and the citizens of Israel. We have reached a situation whereby we are losing our sensitivity towards innocent human beings whether they are Palestinians or not.

This kind of behaviour is reminscint of the evil apartheid years in South Africa, which are still strong in my memory where similar despicable acts occurred against innocent people who opposed racism.

Posted by Shimon Z. Klein @ 12/19/2002 03:35 PM CST

You chose to amplify one case into a norm, wrong in your eyes. I don’t know enough to agree that indeed it is the norm, and not wise enough to conclude that it is wrong. In one thing I am sure about: zooming in on one event regardless of the bigger picture and the legacy leading to this event is shortsighted at best.

Posted by zvigoldman@hotmail.com @ 12/19/2002 03:56 PM CST

Most of the world would see your letter as additional proof that the occupation must end. But when Israel tried the tactic of pulling out of West Bank towns throughout 2001, the consequences were worse for all: Israel suffered more terrorist attacks, and the Palestinians suffered the horror of war each time Israel re-occupied. If the curfews are now becoming less stringent and the roundups more targetted, then the situation is at least stabilizing. The honest conclusion to be drawn is that Israel now needs to reinstate a full military occupation infrastructure, including administrative courts. As long as Israel just wants to stop the terrorists and get out again, both sides will continue to suffer. Ultimately, peace will come when Palestinians like Ibrahim Issa take the reigns from the current leadership (both local and international) in order to set an agenda of coexistence.

Posted by Jonathan Kagan @ 12/19/2002 07:34 PM CST

This particular person had known associations with terrorists whether he knew it or not. It does not surprise me that he was questioned as a result. It had to be determined if he was knowingly involved or not. As for his home, I do believe that is going to far. Thankfully the US Embassy intervened and he was not punished before determining guilt or innocence. The Israeli army may be overly aggressive but this may be a result of the violence from both sides.

Posted by Tim in America @ 12/19/2002 10:44 PM CST

The Israelis and Palestinians working for peace are the bravest people on the face of this earth.
The fact that Israelis speak out against this lack of due process shows the basic strength of their country. I believe peace will come with the bravery of 'peace fighters' like this.

Karen

Posted by Karen @ 12/20/2002 01:34 AM CST

It strikes me as odd that some of the people posting opinions on this matter are not recognizing the fact that the people who were being harbored by Mr. Ibrahim were known terrorists. There was a commander of the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade there in the house. According to the NYTimes; "Ghada Issa, Ibrahim's sister, said that her brother rented an apartment to a stranger two days before the army arrived and that the stranger had said he was a night guard in Bethlehem. "Ibrahim was deceived," she said" Stranger or not she admitted to the fact that these people were being harbored. Now, I am not saying that Mr. Ibrahim knew of their dealings with murderers nor am I saying that he is not a respectable man who deserves a lot of credit for bridging these two peoples together. The fact of the matter is that this is war and these were killers and they were in his house. What do you want the Israelis to do, buy him an ice cream cone for harboring killers. They must arrest and ask questions later. If nobody had contact with him for a day, too bad, he was caught in a serious and grave situation that must be explained by him not the Israelis. One should not expect the Israelis to just overlook this. They must investigate and Mr. Ibrahim must be afforded his rights as well but the fact of the matter is that he was harboring these people. Ami Isseroff's dramatic and poignant rambling never mentioned the fact that Ibrahim was guilty of harboring these people even if it was not on purpose. Isn't that a major omition on Ami's part? Isn't that even the slightest bit relevant? Come on? Putting strong emotional statements are just that if the truth is not in it. I would even put this question by everybody. If all of these Palestinians who are having similar things happen to them for what Ibrahim did, shouldn't they all be arrested at first and questions should be asked later? I know that a lot of these cases are not the same but if Ami is correct than I think that his argument does not hold and its almost laughable.
Also, I am slightly offended about the third reich comments and I am shocked that nobody has said anything about them. Such drama is a good technique in rhetoric and propoganda but it only makes the argument seem weak. I have also heard of this parallel between Israel and South Africa and it is completely different. i could write a huge essay explaining such massive distinctions but I think everyone knows the differences and it is just some of the same rhetoric. Why can't people at least try to look at the facts and not just blind themselves. I am not saying that you should believe my arguments but at least research and think for yourselves. Its sad that it has come down to this but what do you want from the Israelis. You must admit that it is a shady position that Mr. Ibrahim was found to be in. It is not as black and white as some of the respondents speak of. The same goes for the whole conflict and people who put it in such light are either ignorant of the history and the facts on the ground or are just shooting their mouths off. Oh and I think Karen's comments about the fact that Israelis speak out and have the opportunity to voice their concerns does speak a lot of Israel and we here in America(if you all are from America) take this for granted but the fact is that anybody who mistakenly harbored a Jew or an Israeli in the territories would be hung immediately and that is a fact and has been well documented. No trial, no family petitioning the US government, no lawyers, no nothing, just a bullet in the back and possibly being dragged through the street before being hung for public display. I am not trying to be dramatic. This is true and has been well documented by the papers and Palestinian organizations.

Posted by Jason Sternchos @ 12/20/2002 08:47 AM CST

Hello,
The comments are indicative of the entire heart of the Middle East conflict: most of us are NOT LISTENING. To those who say "harboring known terrorists," I remind you that people are innocent until proven guilty in civilized society. That was the point of the article. If a person rented a room from you and turned out to be a drug dealer or an Al-Qaida terrorist, do you think that your house should be destroyed without a hearing? Should you be kept in jail without arraignment?

I know that Ibrahim Issa's troubles will be exploited by apologists for murder and terrorism, but I had to speak out. The Issa family and Hope Flowers have been abused and harrassed by the Israelis and the Palestine Authority in approximately equal measure. They spend their time shuttling between the Israeli authorities to stop the latest demolition order or get tanks removed from the entrance to the school, and enjoying the hospitality of various branches of the Palestinian secret police, where they are invited to explain why they teach Hebrew in their school and have an Israeli flag on the wall.

To those who think the article was just another mindless anti-Zionist bash - look again. I am an Israeli and a Zionist.

These days I am doubly ashamed. When I tell people I support peace in the Middle East, I must be ashamed of those who apologize for suicide bombings in the name of "peace." I am ashamed of people who slander Hilary Clinton for no reason. Hilary Clinton stopped the house demolition. What did you do?

As an Israeli, I have to be ashamed of the lawlessness of the IDF, the opportunism of the government, and the cruelty of some settlers.

In the sad reality of the Middle East controversy, partisans of each side learn nothing at all from events. They just assimilate them into their own propaganda ideas, and concentrate on being part of the problem.

The Zionist bashers can be counted on to say "Apartheid" "war criminal" etc. The extremists on the other side can be counted on to be self-righteous about known terrorists and self-defense. It is impossible of course, to say again in each and every article, that the occupation is wrong and that the terror is wrong, that the occupation is doing Israel no good, and that the tribulations of the Palestinians were brought upon them by the policies of their leaders. It should hardly be necessary to point out that people like Ibrahim Issa cannot be held responsible for the insanity of the Palestinian leadership, and that innocent children, even "settler children" and Palestinian children, should not be punished for the sins of their parents.

Posted by Moderator @ 12/20/2002 12:16 PM CST

Its sad when someone like Issa is ferretted out and punished for doing something with zero malicious intent. What Issa and the Hope Flowers School is doing is good work. They are trying to create an environment where kids can learn about good. It is unfortunate that this conflict will continue for generations due to a lack of understanding of each other. No one is right and no one is wrong in this conflict there is just a lot of pain.

Posted by Rama Karipineni @ 12/20/2002 06:58 PM CST

I hope that Ami does not think that I was punishing him for his comments. He raises a good point about not being able to mention in every article all of the prefaces that lead up to a point. This is such a divisive and emotional issue that can be argued from so many sides. I do commend Ami and his organization on its intentions and I respect what Mr. Ibrahim has done in the past.
For those who say that there is no one right and no one wrong in this conflict they are fooling themselves and taking unbiased to a new level of blindness. There are those who are wrong and that goes for certain groups like the radical settlers on the Israeli side and the whole Palestinian political/military leadership as well as certain foreign Arab governments and organizations that are committed to violence and the destruction of the peace process and the State of Israel. Have we forgotten the past century. These people have to be held accountable. The level of mistrust and the fact that the peace movements in Israel are so disillusioned due to the war that was brought upon them makes for an environment that is so depressing and dangerous. But we must not forget who is responsible for this war not that it changes anything right now to point fingers. Death is death and children dying on both sides is horrific but it is not black and white. It never was. I am just saying that the destruction of houses of the Palestinian in some cases is justified and not lawless. This is war and there are different rules between peace time and war time. There has to be some sort of deterence even though we have not figured out how to stop the violence and terror. But one thing I know is that if the terror and intifada stops then the bulldozing will stop too and not the other way around. That is not a ridiculous thing to say either. Because of these concerns Mr. Ibrahim's house was almost destroed. It is sad that innocent(I say that because I trust what I have read in the Hope web site and hope that Mr. Ibrhaim is as honorable as he is portrayed)people are affected but this is such a violent war in such a small area and that has to be expected but it should not be without reflection and discourse. Maybe the Israelis will take this incident in altering their house demolition philosophy to waiting a little while longer while proper eveidence is collected. One can say' "What about the others who do not have Ibrahim's clout?". This is true and this needs to be addressed. Israeli is a democracy but it is hard these days to fight clean when those on the other side fight dirty. To just blame the Israelis is misguided and unfair. I just thought Ami's anecdote was one sided and I commend his response as clearing up certain but not all problems I had. The fact that he was released so soon says a lot about the current situation and who is reasonable and who is not. The IDF had to take the action that they did and when they were proven to be wrong they released him. I know that it is more complicated than that and the political pressures involved were important but in the end he was released and justice was served. I hope the Tanzim terrorists get their justice as well but in other ways.
We should all praise those comitted towards peace and who take all into account when issuing rebuke as well as praise. I just hope that they outlast the agitators but I have been proven wrong throughout my lifetime. It is easy to be an arm chair quarterback and I am sometimes guilty of this but I do praise those who are physically trying to help the situation.

Posted by Jason @ 12/21/2002 04:03 AM CST

Is Ibrihim released now?
What can we do ? I taught at Hopeflowers and am raising funds for their school organic mini-farm program with Ibrihim. Last year Ibrihim asked me to help him 'grow democracy'.
Eli - on behalf of Friends of Hopeflowers. Email:
humus1@netvision.net.il

Posted by Eli Kaufman @ 12/21/2002 04:33 AM CST

Ibrahim Issa was released Friday December 21. Thanks to everyone who has helped Hope Flowers and MidEastWeb.

Ami

Posted by Moderator @ 12/22/2002 05:54 PM CST

Some of your comments talk of terrorists. In Palestine who is a terrorist? I was a child in World War 2. Then:- the heroic heroes, of the occupied countries, worked and fought in the "undeground".

In Israel things are happening similar to what happened then. The underground blew things up and people were killed. This happens in war and Sharon has said it is war. The Nazis executed their opponents so does Sharon, often killing many by-standers at the same time.

In an occupied country the people have theright to resist. This been so, why are the Palestinian resisters classified as terrorists?

This is a propaganda campaign aimed at hiding the crimes commited by the IDF

Posted by Joan Miller @ 01/07/2003 11:28 AM CST

So few in the west realize that Israel is virtually a torture/police state. The incident of Issa indicates this and is only one of many--and all or most go unreported in America. This is not to exonerate the suicide bombers but to say that those on the hard right in Israel are also guilty of long-ago turning plowshares into swords. Still, the most pressing problem for us in America is for the mainstream media to report such atrocities as Issa's and not sweep them under the carpet.

Mark Grimes

Posted by Mark Grimes @ 01/08/2003 07:14 PM CST

I have to be concerned when yet again the actions of the Israelis are compared to Nazi Germany.

I have to be concerned when this article is so slanted it doesn't even show surprise that Ibrahim Issa didn't know he was harboring a commander of the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade.

I have to be concerned that nowhere in this article is there a condemnation of the terrorists who duped him for their own evil ends and directly caused his house to be destroyed by the IDF.

Apparently the terrorists can do no wrong and the IDF can do nothing right.

Posted by Hank @ 01/15/2003 02:56 AM CST

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